Balancing Needs in Relationships

Michael Preston (00:10.857)
All right, I’m glad to hear that. Well, welcome to Couples in Focus. This is Michael Preston, your EFT therapist and supervisor. And I’m once again joined in my studio. I don’t want to say my studio. I want to redo that. It’s the studio. So hold on. I’m going to redo that. Go ahead and clap twice again.

Thomas Westenholz (00:28.078)
You

Thomas Westenholz (00:37.326)
Now we are good to go.

Michael Preston (00:39.313)
Glad to hear it. Welcome back to couples in focus This is Michael Preston EFT couples therapist and supervisor and I’m joined in the studio with Thomas Weston holes. How you doing?

Thomas Westenholz (00:53.024)
I’m feeling good today and happy to be back for another episode. So I’m curious about what questions we got coming through today,

Michael Preston (00:57.021)
Me too.

Absolutely. We’re going to pull another question from the audience. It was a good one because it’s one that we hear quite often actually. It’s a tricky balance. It’s kind of hitting that like, whether we talk about work-life balance and there’s going to be a lot of factors that play into today’s episode, right? Are we both working? Do we have kids? What’s going on in our life? So it’s going to be a little of a nuanced conversation, but we’ll take it slow. And the question we have is, we have different needs.

How do we meet in the middle and ensure both cups are filled? I hear that a lot, don’t you?

Thomas Westenholz (01:38.978)
Yes, yes, and it is a challenging one, right? So it won’t be just that straightforward black or white answer. So I’m curious and looking forward to discussing this actually.

Michael Preston (01:43.283)
Very challenging.

Michael Preston (01:49.693)
All right, well, let’s dive right in, shall we?

Thomas Westenholz (01:53.952)
Yes, let’s get started.

Michael Preston (01:55.753)
All right, here we go.

Michael Preston (02:04.541)
All right. Yeah, so this is a really important topic because, you know, so many, so often I think what I hear from couples is they come in and, know, this is written from one of our audience members from their perspective. And this is what I do like about couples therapy, right? It’s different than individual therapy because we can’t just give one

perspective, right? If you go to individual therapy and you tell your therapist, I’m not getting my needs met, it doesn’t tell the other side of the story. Right? So what I love about doing couples therapies, you get a really big picture of this. And what I often hear is usually both people feel a very similar way that their partner seems to be getting all of their needs met.

and they’re not getting any of their needs met. And then the other one will go, wait a minute, you’re getting all of your needs met and I’m not getting any of my needs met. Is that right?

Thomas Westenholz (03:09.154)
That’s so true. And you know, I often find also in the practice that often people come in and they have read the books about the five love languages, right? Which has become very, very, very popular book, right? So it’s becoming, it’s very mainstream and they will say, we don’t have compatible love languages because I love touch and my partner is into gifts. And so it’s very difficult. And maybe I’m doubting we are not compatible. And I get it, right? If we haven’t had our needs for a long time and we’re starting to get very frustrated.

Michael Preston (03:32.947)
Yeah.

Thomas Westenholz (03:37.07)
then of course there will start coming these doubts, are we just not compatible, right? I think that’s very, very natural. And I just want to acknowledge that, you know, it is difficult if we have learned different ways of how we show affection, or like to receive affection, right? And we do have obviously different needs as humans, right? Some of us do like more touch than other people. Some of us do like more time together than other people. Some of us needed to be more clean in the kitchen than other people.

Michael Preston (03:47.785)
Mm-hmm.

Thomas Westenholz (04:05.164)
And there’s not a right or wrong, but it’s just often not compatible, right? Yes. Yeah. And you know, even yesterday I spoke to a friend of mine on a call and they had a big row with his partner where, you know, he likes to just relax a bit after dinner, sit down. He had a busy day at work and just sit and chill before going to clean while for her, the kitchen has to be cleaned straight away. Exactly.

Michael Preston (04:08.841)
That’s not fair. I’ve told you my sanctuary is my kitchen. You know it’s very clean. It’s always very clean.

Michael Preston (04:20.7)
ending

Michael Preston (04:27.859)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Preston (04:31.39)
order to relax. what I do know though is she’s right. In that case.

Thomas Westenholz (04:35.406)
You are slightly biased, Michael. I have to call out bias.

Michael Preston (04:39.017)
That’s probably more me talking than me, the therapist talking.

Thomas Westenholz (04:44.014)
That is so funny. So now we know what side you’re on.

Michael Preston (04:49.139)
Yeah, yeah, just just just so we’re clear if you if you clean your kitchen while you’re cooking that’s really what you what you should be doing. Come on people

Thomas Westenholz (04:54.606)
That’s what we do. That’s what we do. Because, you know, I have admitted to the fact that she’s a much better cook than me, right? I had to just, my ego has taken this in that she will always be better. So I said, listen, we have this good conveyor belt where we are ready and done. You cook, I take straight away and I clean it. And by the time food is done, pretty much all the dishes are done. So that works well. Right?

Michael Preston (05:03.017)
Mmm.

Michael Preston (05:13.417)
There you go.

Right? Right. That’s amazing. Get a good system. This is how you get your needs met. No, in all seriousness, this is part of it, right? Because some people need more alone time. Some people don’t want that much alone time. They want more together time. They want more fun. Some people want to sit down and watch TV at the end of the day and kind of sit down and have a cuddle.

Thomas Westenholz (05:22.924)
Yes

Michael Preston (05:45.981)
while they watch the TV, but they not necessarily, maybe they’re talked out, right? And then the other one’s going, where’s the conversation, right? So there’s all these needs and getting both of those needs met can be quite a challenge.

Thomas Westenholz (06:00.248)
Yes, it really is. I think it also brings into, I think we talked previously about the emotional bank account a little bit, that if we are completely empty, then there’s nothing to give. Like you can’t drive a car anywhere if there’s no petrol or electricity in it, right? Whatever car it is, you can’t get anywhere. So it doesn’t matter how much you want to get there. And I think this is a bit the same, especially we live in a culture where the demands on, you know, families are overwhelming.

Michael Preston (06:06.64)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Preston (06:14.419)
Yeah, yeah. Right.

Thomas Westenholz (06:27.662)
because we are now two people who work, right? We then have to come home and we have to do all these household chores. We often don’t have close family around because many people live much further away than we used to do, right? So we don’t have family support around and community that come and help with the kids. So we are totally overwhelmed and under-resourced, meaning it makes sense that there’s not a lot of goodwill and capacity a lot of the time, right? To step in and focus on my partner’s need if I’m constantly feeling drained.

Michael Preston (06:33.107)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Preston (06:38.099)
Yeah, that’s right.

Michael Preston (06:52.201)
Mm-hmm.

Thomas Westenholz (06:56.686)
If I’m constantly feeling empty or maybe even running on spare tank, right. And then you often get into this place where both people stand on different sides. I don’t want to come to your side and give you a need until I get some of my needs. Right. And then there’s almost this standoff, right? It can feel like a standoff. Um, and I think, you know, there’s a real acknowledgement to this too. And again, I actually spoke to another friend yesterday who had this exact issue. said, you know, I had my dad be sick. had the kids and.

You know, my brother was sick and I have work every day till seven in the evening and I’m worn out. I don’t have energy to focus on my partner and I want to be a good partner, but I’m just wiped out. Right. And then they get into these debates about you’re not focusing on my needs. I’m not getting what I need. so I think maybe there’s first of all, maybe just acknowledge how hard that is. Right. It’s so hard. And then just also allow people to slow down.

Michael Preston (07:48.937)
It’s so hard. Absolutely.

Thomas Westenholz (07:54.432)
And maybe just reflect for a moment of the life choices we make, right? Because if we have a life that’s constantly full, that constantly have more demand than we realistically can meet with the energy and resources we have, we are going to struggle. No matter what advice we might give today or tips, you’re going to struggle. If you don’t sit down and say, where am I spending my energy? And where might I be able to reduce some of that that are not that critical? And how do I prioritize?

Michael Preston (07:59.219)
That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (08:24.492)
where I spent my energy, right? I have a pyramid myself that is very clear to me of where I want to spend my energy. And then it’s quite easy for me to say no to a lot of other things, right? But I think unless we start saying no to more things, we simply won’t have the energy to really focus on our partner.

Michael Preston (08:41.245)
That’s right. That’s right. Right. So, so the first thing, right, there is we’re going to like the more things that are in your life and in your relationship, right? That could be both of you working, both raising kids together, needs from extended family. Maybe parents are aging that adds another layer to this deal.

Right? All these different things that are pulling and pulling and pulling from us, and they’re all going to demand a certain amount of energy from us. And then somehow in the midst of all those things, so every bit that you have adds another layer of difficulty. Right? And then you’ve got to now navigate how to make sure all the kids get fed and all the kids do that, all the things happen with the kids.

while maybe one of you are able to get your needs met today, right? Get in something you really need that can help fuel you for the week and help you have enough energy to make sure your partner gets something that they need. And there is a bit of a balancing act there at times, again, depending on how many external things you have pulling that demand your energy, right? So that’s going to be a balancing act it’s gonna be really difficult. And I, you know, I think people,

can often come to the idea that going to therapy means that there’s gonna be an expert who is going to say, this is how you do it. And I wanna just be really clear. I don’t know that I have the answer for every couple on how to balance their needs because I don’t live in their world. That’s not a, if you have a therapist who’s going,

you should just do this and you should just do that. And then you should do that. Like, how does that person know your life? Like fully really get it. So where, where we have to start, right? And I think you’re going to hear me say this a lot. And I hope that, I hope that by the more and more, everyone tunes in and listens, they’re going to hear this over and over. And I’m not just trying to, you know, bang the same drum, but it is important is what happens to your relationship when you two try to have a conversation about

Michael Preston (11:08.285)
Because the difference between the couples that come to my office and the couples that don’t come to my office isn’t a magic thing. It’s the couples that don’t end up in our offices are able to hold a conversation around that effectively. Because you can’t do this balancing act without using your words and talking to your partner. Right? And so the first thing we have to begin to understand is what happens to you when you try to talk about it?

When you go to your partner and say, Hey, here’s what’s on deck. Here’s what I need. Here’s kind of where I am emotionally and where are you? And can we begin to talk about like sometime this week, how are we both going to support each other getting what we need? Yeah, that’s a really, that’s a really important conversation to be able to hold, but many couples can’t find their way to have that kind of conversation.

Thomas Westenholz (12:06.958)
that’s why it’s so important to have some check-ins, right? Because often this is left unspoken for so long that the anger and resentment by the time they come to us has really, really grown, right? So there was this guy, I forgot his name, who wrote this book called Fifteen Minutes Relationship Fix. And I don’t think it’ll fix your relationship in 15 minutes. it was a really sweet little idea.

Michael Preston (12:17.192)
Hmm.

Michael Preston (12:25.625)
That better be one expensive book.

Thomas Westenholz (12:30.774)
And I liked the idea, which was just to have a weekly check-in of about 15 minutes. And it’s really simple. That’s the main idea of the book. And I think that is important because when these things go unspoken and accumulate, they become harder and harder to speak about because they become more more emotionally charged and there will be more more anger and resentment. Meaning when we speak about it, finally, it’s not likely to come across very well and be received very well. So I think regular check-ins are so important. And also just

Michael Preston (12:46.121)
Absolutely.

Michael Preston (12:55.273)
That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (12:59.288)
There’s this acknowledgement that I just felt as you were talking that, you know, relationships aren’t 50-50. Of course, we talk about mutuality is important in adult relationship. However, we are going to have different resources, different time, different money at different times in any dynamic throughout the life, right? And as an example, now my partner at the moment is working really long hours. You know, I’m lucky with my therapeutic practice, right? That sometimes I work four hours in a day.

And that’s it. So I have more capacity and therefore I am probably able at the moment more to look after some of her needs a bit less than she can mine. And that will change. Then there’s a time where my son was in hospital and that reversed. So my point is you can’t expect this all the time that it’s a 50-50. There will be different times where you will take over and compensate based on who has most resources, right? That doesn’t mean of course that you have to put your needs aside for years on end. That’s not what I’m talking about here. And I think

Michael Preston (13:41.149)
Yeah.

Michael Preston (13:56.755)
That’s not even a good idea to do that.

Thomas Westenholz (13:58.71)
Yeah, exactly. And I think, you know, when you say about having these conversations, you’re so spot on. It’s so, so important. And I feel often because we are so uncomfortable with disappointing our partner, we often avoid these conversations because sometimes we can’t meet those needs, right? Whatever they might be, they could be sexual, could be whatever they are. We might not actually be able to meet them, right? Maybe we can’t give them all the time they want with us for whatever reason. However,

I think a key difference that I found really helpful, I learned this by somebody who talked like, was it 10 years ago, I went to this workshop and it was super helpful. It was very simple. And I think, know, EFT very much aligned with this is that the most important part of disappointment is we don’t want to feel alone in the disappointment. So disappointment often become really harmful because we leave our partner alone in it. We don’t want to have those conversations we avoided and

Michael Preston (14:44.841)
That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (14:54.954)
If they speak about it, we cannot dismiss it. And that means they’re left now feeling alone with the disappointment, which is you can say secondary layer of pain, right? While something that can be really beneficial, I’ve found is even when it’s not possible to meet that need to actually sit with them and be with them and that disappointment and say, Hey, I get this is really hard for you. And that’s really disappointing that I’m not able to, you know, dedicate all this time that you would like to have with me right now.

Michael Preston (15:04.105)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Preston (15:24.382)
Mm-hmm.

Thomas Westenholz (15:25.11)
And I hear that that’s super disappointing and I’m happy to sit down and have conversations when this come up and you feel frustrated and disappointed and listen to you. So you’re not alone in that. So, know, just in that action alone, we start changing the, happens within the dynamic when there is disappointment, which inevitable there will be in any relationship, right? Like I can’t do everything my partner needs. I’m sure you can’t either. It’s just not possible.

Michael Preston (15:48.327)
No, no, absolutely not. No, no, that’s a good point, right? Cause we can’t be the end all be all for everything. And we’re never going to have all of our needs met, right? That’s, but we can get enough if we can have a conversation around it. And you were talking about even avoiding the conversation, but that’s, that’s part of one of the issues that couples face, right? So if you’re, if you’ve listened to the episodes, you’ve heard us talk about avoidant.

attachment style and anxious attachment style. And I can likely guarantee you that the person who wrote me that question has an anxious attachment style because they’re pursuing their needs. That’s what they’re doing. They’re going, Hey, how do we do this? How do we do this? How do we do this? But you know what I often hear on the other side of that is how avoiding the more avoidant partner.

They’re going to struggle to even acknowledge that they have needs. For so long, they have already cut off parts of themselves, often their emotional and relational needs. And what happens is they become unawares of them. And then what happens is you might see…

The analogy that I’ll give is it’s like an air compressor, right? And when you turn that air compressor on, you start hearing it rumble and it starts to build pressure inside the air compressor. And it’s adding a little bit of air at a time. And it has a mechanism on it that if the pressure gets to be too much and you haven’t used the air, right? It’s supposed to cut it off, but if it doesn’t,

It’s got like a little safety valve and it blows off some steam out of the compressor so that the tank doesn’t just explode. Right. But when I listen to avoidant partners talk about their experience around these things, it is so often that they’ll say, I’m not even aware that I’m overwhelmed or distressed or exhausted. It doesn’t dawn on me.

Michael Preston (18:07.399)
It doesn’t dawn on me until the moment where suddenly I’m being asked one more thing and I just can’t be asked for one more thing. Right? It’s like they don’t realize that camel is overloaded until the final straw hits and they collapse. Right? And then people go, whoa, like where’d that come from buddy? Right? But they’re so mis-

So not misattuned, not misattuned, but like unattuned to their own self, right? Because that’s been a survival mechanism for them for so long. It’s been, that’s the way they’ve protected themselves because getting those needs met across the span of their lifetime, that’s not happening. They’ve never considered the idea, right? I hear that so often. was like, hey, what would it be like for you to turn to your partner and share, right? Like, hey, sometimes I need this. And he’s like, turn to somebody. No.

It’s just, what are you talking about, Right? And so that is such a challenge that couples are going to face, right? That even holding this conversation is going to require the avoidant partner to sit with themself a bit more and say, what does it feel like in me when I start to get overwhelmed?

Thomas Westenholz (19:29.422)
And that can be really hard in the beginning, right? Because the truth is that there was a reason they developed these mechanisms to not feel. So suddenly when we asking them, hey, you need to sit down and feel and tune into what your needs are, that can for some times they will say, hey, this feels worse than before. I liked how it was before because at least I didn’t have to feel, right? Yes. So when you suddenly start and of course there are things that were suppressed for a reason that might not be particularly comfortable, right?

Michael Preston (19:31.635)
Go, Hart!

Michael Preston (19:43.292)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Preston (19:50.02)
I didn’t have to deal with this stuff.

Thomas Westenholz (19:57.686)
And like you also kind of mentioned, there’s also sometimes even the expectation that this wouldn’t be met anyway, especially if they’re more vulnerable needs, right? Of needing support from the other. And then of course these wouldn’t be expressed, right? They would be withheld or might not even be aware of them, as you said. And if they’re aware of them, they might not think that they’re valid needs that could be met. So they are kind of just internalized and held inside. But of course it will accumulate a felt sense of distance, right? Towards a partner over time.

Michael Preston (19:57.801)
Mm-mm.

Thomas Westenholz (20:27.572)
so I guess, yeah, exactly. As you said, often for the avoidant partner, that can be a big, big challenge that yeah, not to be aware. And even if you are aware, then feel that these are not really valid needs. I shouldn’t really need them to help me, even though, you know, my sister maybe just died. Right. And of course you need support, right? Of course it’s valid, but in their internal reference system, it might not be so.

Michael Preston (20:33.321)
Huge challenge,

Michael Preston (20:39.645)
Right.

Michael Preston (20:44.435)
Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Preston (20:50.801)
It’s unbelievable, right? The number of times I’ve had a couple come into my office and the withdrawers, parent or sibling or grandparent, someone close to them has died. And their partner goes, I don’t know how they’re feeling about that. Like I can’t see it. And their partner goes, I’m fine. Right? And then if you scratch the surface a little bit, right? They’re like, well, I mean, of course I’m not fine. Like I’m sad.

and their partner’s like, you are? You are sad, right? But that’s the level of keeping the calm on the surface that which ours are used to doing. It’s just kind of holding that all together at all times for all reasons. Right. And then they get into that task mode, which is I mowed the lawn, I raked the leaves, I, you know, washed the windows. I, you know,

went to work, you know, hey, I’m there changing diapers, right? Look at all the things that I’m doing. How are you now coming at me as if I’m not doing enough to give you what you need? I thought you needed all these things done. I thought you needed the lawn cut. I thought you needed me to help you change the diapers.

Thomas Westenholz (21:57.09)
Yeah.

Thomas Westenholz (22:06.003)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (22:11.64)
Yes, you know what, this is such a good, really good direction actually that this is going, I’m liking it. yes, yes. And you know, this is so fascinating because we talked about the withdrawal often, know, partner avoidant partner often don’t really know always what it actually is they need. But I would even say often for the anxious, I find the same and let me just explain what I mean is that very often, you know, the I have an anxious partner that might come in and say,

Michael Preston (22:15.335)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, this is what we see. This is what happens to couples.

Michael Preston (22:33.574)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Thomas Westenholz (22:39.02)
He’s not helping enough that I need him to step up to the table. I’m doing everything with the kids and I need help with this, with packing things. And then he starts doing it because he doesn’t want the relationship to fall apart. So he start doing all these logical tasks that he said, however, she still feel dissatisfied and he still feel criticized. Right. And that’s because

Michael Preston (22:49.821)
Right, right, right.

Michael Preston (22:55.399)
Right, right. And the message is now, it’s really never gonna be enough, right?

Thomas Westenholz (23:02.208)
Yes, right, exactly. And also, I think the second part of that is that what often is craved from the more anxious partner, right, or pursuing partner is the emotional response. So even if he starts doing all these logical tasks that maybe she thought is what, and maybe also is needed, right, but that alone was not enough to feel the needs were met, right? Because often they also crave the knowing emotionally, just like you said before, maybe this person lost somebody.

But there’s no emotional response. Like, where are you? So even when they start doing these tasks, I often found that it doesn’t really get much better straight away when the emotional need of emotional response is still missing, right? And often the anxious and realize…

Michael Preston (23:33.907)
Yeah.

Michael Preston (23:44.251)
It, yeah, it doesn’t not help. I’ll say that during some of these things with free partner and engaging. Yes, it can, it can be helpful. Right. We want you to know that, but it cannot be the only thing it cannot. It’s not going to like it is. It’s a piece to the puzzle. Right. But if it’s the, if you, one, if, if, if you and your partner, right. So I’ll put this, this is a, this is an issue like your naming right here that is on both sides. If.

Thomas Westenholz (23:56.428)
That’s it.

Thomas Westenholz (24:02.371)
Yes.

Michael Preston (24:14.095)
as the partner who’s going the more anxious route of looking at the things and saying, do more, do more, do more. If your focus is on do more, do more, do more, there’s an endless amount of do mores that aren’t going to satisfy what you’re looking for. And on the other side, there’s an endless amount of doing that you can engage in that because it’s not satisfying, maintains the feeling like you’re not doing enough or that it’s never gonna be good enough.

And that is going to perpetuate the feeling that nobody is getting their needs met. So even if you do more to meet more needs, it’s not going to help you feel like you’re getting your needs met.

Thomas Westenholz (24:49.912)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (24:58.222)
That’s right. And this is why I think when we talked about people sitting down and having these conversations, right. And I think what’s really important and what we’re touching on here is there’s multiple layers to this conversation. So yes, there might be practical tasks that needs to get done. And as you said, of course it can be helpful, but just then having a practical list of tasks we go through isn’t going to help us relate more. It might help us cope with what we have to cope with.

Michael Preston (25:04.541)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Preston (25:24.009)
Mm-hmm.

Thomas Westenholz (25:24.056)
but it doesn’t create the relational element. There’s then also an emotional elements of needs that often you’re right, people might not be aware of. And that’s what often we help them get to know those needs more right in couples therapy for both partners. And then, you know, of course there’s bodily needs too, right? So I think there’s all these different layers that are important to involve in a conversation and start learning how to become more aware of. So we can talk about what are the different layers of needs. Cause if we only meet one of them, let’s say the practical task.

There will probably still be the satisfaction, right? Even after that is fulfilled because we still don’t have the emotional element, right? And you’re right. If we only have the emotional element, but there’s no helpfulness in the task.

Michael Preston (26:00.873)
Yeah, yeah. So let me answer your question then, right?

This question comes up a lot. do we, how do we, in scenarios where you’re working with a couple who can’t find their way through this particular issue, how many of those couples would you say someone in the relationship is actually getting all like at least enough of their needs met? Like, and the other one is, is there’s really an imbalance there. You know what I mean? Like how often do you see it’s like,

Thomas Westenholz (26:33.624)
Yes.

Michael Preston (26:36.086)
yeah, there’s a real imbalance of needs getting met and how often do you see it’s like actually there’s a lot of needs on both sides not getting met.

Thomas Westenholz (26:43.054)
That’s a really good question, Michael. I just, let me just have a reflection on that. You know, straight away, what came up for me was that I feel most of the time it’s on both sides, but there will be a perception that one of them say, I’m doing all of it. and yes, there’s very rare cases where that might be, but in most cases I would say, no, it’s actually on both sides that there’s fundamentally needs missing.

Michael Preston (26:45.107)
Mm.

Michael Preston (27:06.366)
Mm-hmm.

Thomas Westenholz (27:09.71)
that are not being met. So I don’t think it tends to be very one-sided. There might be somebody who feel they’re doing more with the kids, but they might not see what the other partner is doing in all these other areas, right? And often actually what I found, and it’s very interesting, has gone missing when these conversations haven’t been had and it’s been running for a long time and this dissatisfaction has built, is that they no longer see each other’s strengths. They’re instead often starting to compare, but I do this, so why can’t you do it?

And of course we are good at different things as well. Some person might be really organized. Another one might be highly creative and good at coming up with solutions, right? And they have kind of lost on the track where they got lost. They’re no longer able to use each other’s strength. Instead, they start looking for each other’s potential pitfalls and then compare to each other and say, but I’m good at this. Why can’t you just do that? Right.

Well, I can do this. Why are you not doing it that way? And they will create a comparison model to their own paradigm and strength, which makes the other person feel inadequate a lot of the time. Right. And that’s often what we hear the avoidant come in to say, right, they start feeling inadequate, that they’re not good enough, that they are stepping on eggshells, that they can’t get it right. All this typical terminology, right, which can be a very harmful message over time to get consistently right. And I found that’s very often what has gotten lost.

Michael Preston (28:12.969)
Mmm.

Michael Preston (28:28.841)
Mm-hmm.

Thomas Westenholz (28:31.95)
is that when we first meet each other, it’s easy to see each other’s strengths, right? It’s nice and fun. And we often focus on the other person’s strengths. And somehow over time, as these, again, we talked about in the last podcast, it’s small little fractures, but again, over time accumulates to a point where we get angry and we only start seeing the fear and focusing on the things they’re not good at, right? And comparing instead of remembering, actually, my partner is amazing at coming up with ideas that makes our relationship more fun.

Michael Preston (28:54.493)
Mm-hmm.

Thomas Westenholz (29:01.986)
But it’s true. They’re not very good at cleaning. They are a bit disorganized in that way. How can we somehow utilize each other’s strength instead of start fighting each other over the challenges that each one has, right?

Michael Preston (29:09.363)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Preston (29:14.557)
Yeah, no, that’s really great, right? How do we keep sight of the strengths our partner brings to the relationship in order to have an effective way to find

getting our needs met through inviting our partner strengths more pronounced into the relationship. I was asking that question and I think you’re right. For the most part, I think you’re right that it is pretty balanced at least in each partner’s experience. And so what I wanted to say on that is if the conversation

around getting needs met generally is started by adding more to the to-do list or finding another thing your partner hasn’t done. Or maybe it’s just leaving the room and like walking in the house and heading straight to your office, right? From one office into the house, nope, gonna go to my office because here goes the argument again, right? And you’re gone and then they’re standing there, right? If that’s the dynamic, that’s never going to.

ever ever ever ever ever going to achieve getting those needs met. But if we can take a moment and say if I’m feeling like my needs are not getting met and that’s fair.

It’s likely my partner isn’t either. It’s likely my partner also feels like their needs aren’t getting met.

Michael Preston (30:59.643)
and I wonder how to hold a conversation. Right? And so this is where we go back into curious and compassionate. Right? And that’s always going to have a better runway for a conversation when we are curious, compassionate, and collaborative. So coming to our partner and saying, hey,

I have been feeling quite run down lately. And I know I’m busy and I know you’re busy and we’ve got the kids and they’ve got the soccer and they’ve got the gymnastics and then the music and then you’ve got your work and I’ve got my work and right. We can name all the reasons with our partner that we are both exhausted. And if I know I’m not feeling quite like I’m getting enough poured back in.

to keep me moving forward, I imagine you might not be feeling that as well. You might also feel like your cup’s getting emptier and emptier without getting something to pour back in. And I wanted to check in and see how you’re doing. I wanted to check in to see if that’s as true for you as it is for me.

Now there we go, right? Here’s a conversation that is saying, here’s where I am and I’m checking in with myself and this would likely be your pursuer, but we like talking about this stuff anyway, so it’s fine. But it’s an invitation for your partner to examine themselves and they can say, you know what? You’re right. I’m not feeling like I’m getting enough poured in with as much as we have to pour out. Notice the we part of it. That’s the collaborative piece.

with all that we have going on. Right? And I see you. I see how hard you’re working at work. You know, I see you waking up at night with the kids and putting them back to bed with me. I see you changing the diapers. Right? And this is, again, this is not a gender, gender conversation. This is anybody, right? He, she, they, anyone.

Michael Preston (33:02.739)
can go to their partner compassionate and collaboratively and name the things they’re seeing their partner do, right? And ask about what that cup feels like for them. That’s an open conversation to saying, can you come to the table and let’s talk about this and let’s find a way.

Thomas Westenholz (33:19.95)
Yes. And that’s such a good way to start that conversation too, right? When we sit down, because what you’re doing here is, Hey, I start by actually acknowledging my partner before bombarding them with all the things that I feel they’re not meeting. And, know, it’s much easier to hear. And a lot of people coming in often really lack a sense of feeling appreciated. Right. So to start the conversation with say, Hey, I see what you do. Right.

Michael Preston (33:29.929)
Mm.

Yeah. Alright.

Michael Preston (33:45.641)
Mm-hmm.

Thomas Westenholz (33:45.826)
that already opens up to being able to receive the message more of some of the things that maybe there’s a desire for more of, right? So it’s a basic way of how we do feedback, right? Even in business, I remember this is what we would use to do, right? We would start by focusing on what somebody does well, not just tell them what they don’t do well, because then they become really demotivated if you just hear all the time, you’re not doing this well, you’re not doing this well, right? That becomes actually draining. also for, you know, as you were talking about

A way to really help the partner show up in these conversations is that for a lot of, you know, more avoidant partners, I think this is more predominant is often the fear of failure, of getting it wrong. Right. And therefore you can be very hard to try for somebody to meet needs that they might not know how to meet. They could be emotional responsiveness that maybe you need more of, right. To see more of their emotion. could be.

Michael Preston (34:37.321)
That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (34:39.512)
whatever it might be, it could be they find it harder dealing with the kids, whatever it might be, right? And they find it really hard. And because they often had a very harsh narrative around failure, they then avoid, right? That’s their strategy. So by coming in critical, you kind of mirror exactly what they experienced growing up. And you’re probably going to get more of defensive responses they learned growing up, which is by drawing and not want to have these conversations with you, not responding to the needs, right? So

Michael Preston (34:51.689)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Preston (35:00.711)
You are. You are.

Thomas Westenholz (35:08.64)
Instead, we know that, that a lot of their model has been, hey, failure is really painful, right? And I’d rather avoid trying if I think I’m going to fail. Maybe you can start becoming really gentle with them, encourage them to try. And when they try and maybe don’t get it fully right the way you desire, then instead of coming straight back at them and saying, hey, you you messed this up, go back to what you said, right? Acknowledge and say, hey, you really tried there with the kids.

Michael Preston (35:14.601)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Preston (35:36.649)
Mm-hmm.

Thomas Westenholz (35:37.43)
And that’s really awesome. really appreciate that. And maybe we could do a bit like this next time, but I really value that I can see you’re showing up, right? Because then you can change to a new message that maybe they haven’t had that slowly allow it to be easier for them both to have these conversations, but also to actually try meeting some of these needs that might have been quite intimidating for them to even engage with because they anticipated failure, right? And for them, that’s a big thing.

Michael Preston (35:40.083)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Preston (35:46.217)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (36:04.989)
Yep, absolutely. So I wanna recap a little bit of what we said here as we’re coming up to the final bit of our episode here. Let me recap and then I have a word for the men sitting in the metaphorical back row of this podcast. So let me start with the recap. One, what is your conversation like around needs? Is your relationship able to talk about it or does it get stuck in a cycle?

criticizing and blaming and leaving each other feeling like there’s no good way for either of us to do it here. Right? Generally that’s a big, big factor in why people don’t get their needs met, why couples can’t find a way. Right? And so in order to combat that, it’s going to take a level of compassion, curiosity, and collaboration where we begin with acknowledging where we are and

seeing the good reason our partner might feel the same way. And then going through able to hold a conversation around all the things that we’re both doing that would leave us in a more needy place, right? And if we’re pouring out and pouring out and pouring out, can we share that we see our partner? I see you. I see you and I see the work you’re doing. And I can’t imagine you’re doing all of that.

without also feeling like you need something too. Because if I can’t acknowledge your needs, you certainly aren’t gonna acknowledge mine, right? So I see you and I see you have needs and my hope is that we can help each other get there, right? That’s how we wanna hold a, at least try to get into the conversation that way. It’s likely, you know, the first go at that is gonna kind of be rocky and you might step on each other’s toes, but we gotta change this stance, right?

If we keep coming to the floor and keep turning on salsa music and we keep salsa-ing, that’s not fun. But if we’ve been doing the salsa for a long time and then suddenly someone’s playing swing music, we’re going to get on the dance floor and we start doing it, we’re to step on each other’s toes because we’re so used to doing the salsa, right? And so it’s going to be rocky. It’s not going to be perfect, right? But progress, not perfection, right?

Thomas Westenholz (38:19.854)
That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (38:24.598)
Yes. And, know, I think that’s a great summary. And the only thing I add is this really also practice being present with your partner in disappointment when that will happen inevitably. Right. A perfect example, my friend who is now his partner is pregnant and she is not really feeling sexual at all, which is very hard for him. Right. But now it’s causing a lot of conflict for them because he’s feeling alone with it. Right. And when he brings it up, it could just get dismissed instead of it’s possible to sit down and say,

Michael Preston (38:35.667)
Hmm.

Michael Preston (38:43.826)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Michael Preston (38:51.017)
Hmm.

Thomas Westenholz (38:54.24)
I feel, I get you that this is really, really hard for you and really disappointing and can maybe even feel quite rejecting, right, for you that I don’t want that. At the moment, I can’t do it without violating myself because I’m just not feeling it. But I hear your disappointment and I welcome you to come and share with me when this is really hard. That’s a very different experience, right? Then just be told, stop getting on about me all the time with this, right? And this is really annoying and

Michael Preston (39:17.031)
Right, yeah.

Thomas Westenholz (39:20.418)
Da da da, right? Where you then feel I’m really alone and you start building up that. So I think that’s so important too, right? And I know it’s difficult, but it’s a practice again, right? How can we actually deal with disappointment and actually be together in the fact that sometimes we can’t, but at least you don’t have to be alone in your disappointment. I’m here with you, right?

Michael Preston (39:38.281)
That’s No, that’s such a great point. Can I see the good reason why it would be disappointing? Which is just because he loves you. And that’s like, your disappointment is because you love me you want to be with me. And that’s got to feel disappointing and acknowledge it. That doesn’t mean we got to suddenly jump and go, okay, well, let’s go hit the sack. I can see your disappointment and hold space for that.

Thomas Westenholz (39:51.394)
Yes, yes.

Thomas Westenholz (39:55.907)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (40:04.024)
Yes.

Yes.

Michael Preston (40:08.475)
even in the space that I can say, man, I’m not there yet. Yeah. All right, so a word for the boys in the back, right? And that is this, while that is true that nobody’s needs are getting met in a relationship where somebody’s needs aren’t getting met, right? It’s not like usually one and none for the other. It is also true that we have historically done a pretty…

Michael Preston (40:35.251)
decent job of passing the household buck to women, right? That nowadays as more women are in the workforce, right? There’s less, that workforce it’s necessitated through all sorts of reasons, but so often both partners are going to work. And so the dynamic of, well, I’m at work and you’re doing, like, that’s very uncommon now.

But what is still common, at least what shows up in my office and look, maybe the people that are coming to my office are doing a great job with this. And that may be why they’re not coming into my office. But if you’re listening to this and you’re struggling with this, I can imagine that there’s this remnants of an old culture narrative, right? That says, come home from work and then I’m not as engaged with the kids. And it’s a default to the women in the house to think about packing the kids lunch for the next day.

The thought load of preparing the household things is often, right? And look, if this is not you and your wife doesn’t feel that way, super, you’re doing a great job. But if that is you, and this is going, this feels uncomfortable for what I’m saying right now goes hits a certain place and it goes, this, I don’t like this. You might check in with your wife and ask if she feels like she carries a bit more of that automatic load because of the cultural narrative that that’s what.

the household structure is. Does that make sense, Thomas? So just, it’s a big elephant in the room, right? That I think it has to be addressed because without challenging that narrative, and this is for me too, because I know I can default into that narrative because that is the narrative. That’s the cultural way I was brought up. It was just, that’s the default. And if I don’t actively acknowledge that part of me,

Thomas Westenholz (42:04.182)
It does and you know, yeah.

Michael Preston (42:29.007)
one has benefited from that system, but also if I don’t think about it, I will default into it. And so I have to actively acknowledge that and challenge and push against it.

Thomas Westenholz (42:40.622)
And this was really important what you said at the end, think is important message for people listening where they might go out is that it doesn’t mean you are a bad person. It just means that as you said, by default, if we don’t are very aware of it, then we’re all going to fall into these narratives, right? That were fed and given to us. Doesn’t mean we’re bad. It’s just how humans are wired, right? So it’s the same with biases. It doesn’t mean that you’re bad because you have biases.

Michael Preston (42:49.318)
No, no, no, no.

Michael Preston (43:02.633)
That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (43:07.726)
It’s how we naturally work. The point is to become aware of these biases, right? So it doesn’t mean you’re a bad person. If you’ve done this,

Michael Preston (43:10.441)
That’s right.

This is just how we were, this is just ingrained in us, right? It’s as intuitive to us as breathing, right? It just becomes it. That’s right, that’s right. That’s right. Yeah, that’s right. That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (43:17.592)
That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (43:22.926)
That’s right. But awareness allow us to change, right? And that’s why you’re bringing it up because at least we can start spotting it and saying, Hey, okay, maybe I can do it in a different way, but I think we can only change when we don’t feel shame, right? That’s why I’m saying it doesn’t mean you are a bad person.

Michael Preston (43:35.401)
That’s right. Yeah, yeah. No, I appreciate it. It’s such an important piece, right? Because it’s shame will shut it down and then it’s done, right? So I’ll just add one piece to open that topic, right? There’s so much more to say on it. We’ve got to wrap up our episode here. But I just want to acknowledge, like, that doesn’t mean I’m making commentary on partners who don’t go into the workforce. And so that means all the household stuff is on you. I’m not saying that, right? I want to be very clear that

Thomas Westenholz (43:41.047)
Yes.

Michael Preston (44:04.457)
The only time to divide that is when both people are working again. I’m not saying that it’s just, that’s a larger topic for another time and we don’t have time to go into all of it. But I could see, could hear in my mind how it could sound like I’m saying, if you don’t have a job, then you have to do all the housework and it should fall to you. And that’s not what I’m saying. I just wanted to clear that up. All right. All right. Absolutely. Thank you so much, Thomas. I look forward to catching up with you again. All right, bye.

Thomas Westenholz (44:26.318)
Amazing. Time to wrap up for today, isn’t it?

Amazing, see you soon.