Breaking the Cycle of Conflict

Thomas Westenholz (00:49.13)
So welcome back to the podcast Couples in Focus and I am Thomas. here with Michael, my friend and co-host. So it’s great to be back, Michael.

Michael Preston (00:59.975)
it’s good to be back. It’s good to see you.

Thomas Westenholz (01:01.452)
So, you know, last episode was a heavy one, but also an important one, I feel. So yeah, we want to try and keep it a bit more lighthearted as well in this episode. And I think a topic that could be interesting to discuss a bit more is the arguments, right? And this, need to be right in arguments and how often that’s very important for identity, right? So maybe that could be a good place for us to start and just look at what is actually happening.

Michael Preston (01:06.958)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Preston (01:21.304)
Hmm.

Thomas Westenholz (01:30.568)
in these dynamics, right? And I’m aware that in my relationship, I’m always right. And I’m sure you are in yours too, And Locklear partners are not here to counter-argue. So I want to just discuss that because it’s so common that we get stuck in this place, right? Where we keep going back and forward and we debate the details. No, you said this. No, you did this. And I like the old saying,

Michael Preston (01:35.096)
Yeah, I mean, I’ve always been right. I am, I am always right.

Michael Preston (01:43.736)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (01:47.331)
Yeah.

Michael Preston (01:55.585)
No, sorry.

Thomas Westenholz (01:59.208)
I can’t remember who said this to me once, but do you want to be right or do you want to be happy because you can’t be both?

Michael Preston (02:03.222)
Yeah. Yeah. It’s a good one. It is a good one. And, and for the most part there are, mean, I agree. I think it’s good because there’s a lot of truth in it, but yeah, let’s, let’s jump in. Let’s dig into this. What is happening when being right.

Thomas Westenholz (02:23.904)
Yes.

Michael Preston (02:26.59)
overpowers the relationship. Because if there’s something I know about people, it’s that there is good reason that being right is important and being wrong is devastating.

Thomas Westenholz (02:28.926)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (02:38.323)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (02:42.848)
Yes, there is, because when I’m saying, Hey, you know, if I keep going and I want to be right and I’m not giving in and I’m willing to escalate and even cause fracture in the relationship, right? To know that I’m right. It’s kind of me saying, it’s really important for me to be validated here. Right? It’s really important to know that there’s a validation of what I’m experiencing right here. And it’s really hard.

Michael Preston (03:01.474)
Mm-hmm.

Thomas Westenholz (03:09.994)
to be alone with that experience. I’m gonna keep going and going and going in the hope that at some point you’re gonna say, I can see that. Yeah, that is obviously my hope will keep going. My hope is not that I come in and say, I really want escalation today.

Michael Preston (03:19.619)
Right.

Yeah.

But that is definitely not what’s going to happen. So let me ask you question. For listeners who might have an avoidance strategy, Which I hope we have a lot of avoidance strategy listeners, because this might be a safe enough space to come and start learning without getting a lot of correction or setting off a dynamic. So that’s what I’m kind of hoping. And then I know the pursuers are showing up. That’s for sure. They’re going to show up everywhere they can.

Thomas Westenholz (03:28.202)
That is not what’s gonna happen.

Yes.

Michael Preston (03:52.194)
But help me with when the avoidant partner is stuck in being right, like if that’s becoming very important, what will they be doing? Like how will, what will their partners see happening?

Thomas Westenholz (04:05.47)
Yes. So I think what I start with what they’re doing and then we can go with what they so what they’re doing is they’re protecting their sense of self. So this is why criticism to them is so fundamentally threatening and often very overwhelming because it’s often a criticism of their whole sense of self. And we talked a bit in the last episode about the difference between

Michael Preston (04:12.43)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Preston (04:25.806)
Mm-hmm.

Thomas Westenholz (04:29.01)
shame and guilt. And I know what she called Brown, she has written some amazing books about, you know, shame and guilt and etc. And done a lot of research on that, Brené Brown. So she could be worth looking up, right? And where the difference is that shame is, there’s something wrong with me, guilt is, I feel bad about what I did, right? And she says, guilt is a helpful human emotion to help us change when we’ve done a mistake, shame is not, right? And often what happens for the more avoidant partner,

Michael Preston (04:39.316)
yeah, yeah,

Michael Preston (04:51.15)
Yeah.

Thomas Westenholz (04:58.14)
is that they very quickly switch into shame, meaning the sense that there’s something wrong with me fundamentally as a human being. And that makes it very, very difficult. So when I hear this and it feels like it’s an attack on who I am as a human being, I, of course, have to kind of either disappear altogether and leave, or I have to argue back and say, no, that’s not what happened. It was like this. I didn’t do this. And actually you did this. And then we got stuck.

Michael Preston (05:20.174)
That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (05:26.204)
in this big ring where nobody actually hears each other, what we call find a bad guy, right? Trying to say who is in the wrong here. And the fact is nobody can ever win that because even if you were to overpower and get your partner to agree that actually you were right, they’re left feeling small. So there’s no connection here that happened. Actually, there was still a fracture of that, right? So it’s like nuclear war. There’s no winner, right? It’s an absurd thing to even start. And yet

Michael Preston (05:27.647)
I’m here.

Michael Preston (05:31.138)
That’s right. Right.

Michael Preston (05:43.566)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (05:51.448)
There’s no winner. Yeah.

Thomas Westenholz (05:54.63)
It makes sense that when you say what’s happening for the avoidant, well, they’re trying to protect their sense of identity. Yeah. And that’s certainly threatened when this criticism is coming. So therefore they’re going to push back sometimes and say, no, that’s not what happened. This is actually what happened. And why can’t you just be logical? You’re getting so emotional and you’re not remembering the facts, right? Right.

Michael Preston (06:00.974)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (06:14.638)
Right. good. So now you’re getting into kind of what they’re doing, right? What their partner’s going to blame them for getting too emotional, right? Their partner’s going to say, you’re not thinking about this rationally, right? If you would just stop being so emotional, then we could move on, right? Because they’re gonna see the emotion as what’s driving their partner. And they have a way of…

Thomas Westenholz (06:19.534)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (06:23.657)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (06:29.492)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (06:36.064)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (06:44.522)
not getting into their emotion in order to keep a level head. Right? And it’s their level headness that kind of helps them go, no, I have a level head and therefore I’m the one thinking clearly about this. And because I have the clarity about it, then I have the right facts, right? Then I have the right perspective. And if my partner would get out of their emotions, they would see it my way.

Thomas Westenholz (06:49.908)
right.

Thomas Westenholz (06:55.485)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (07:00.053)
Yes.

Michael Preston (07:13.57)
They would see how logical this is, right? If they could only see it, right? But they can’t because of all these emotional waves they’re getting hit by. So I’m just trying to help my partner make it to the shore, right? Because I’m standing here totally balanced and I’m cool and I’m chill, right? That’s what you’re gonna see. You’re gonna see that’s kind of how they show up. No, no, that’s not what happened, right? They’re usually pretty calm. They can obviously get agitated, at least on the outside.

Thomas Westenholz (07:13.574)
Yes. Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (07:23.412)
Yes, that’s-

Exactly.

Thomas Westenholz (07:37.664)
That’s right. Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (07:43.732)
Guess.

Michael Preston (07:44.024)
Right. Which can be infuriating on the other side of this thing.

Thomas Westenholz (07:48.264)
Of course it can. also, you know, I think often, because now you were saying right now we’re looking at the avoidant perspective and then of course we’re going to switch. But often I think there’s also a fear of emotional intensity. So there’s this, I’m going to stay in the logic because then I don’t have to go to this feeling which can be really over. And I don’t want to escalate. And often they think that if they go to the feeling, it’s going to escalate. So they try to stay in the logic, which is

Michael Preston (08:12.219)
yeah.

Thomas Westenholz (08:15.324)
actually would tend to escalate more emotional intensity on the other side, Where they then start discussing what is right and what’s not. And maybe the other side will then start to argue back, but actually the emotional cue is now completely missed in this noise of facts being thrown. And the fact is, you know, when we talk about and always say this, I’m just looking at the facts. I’m not emotional. I think number one,

Michael Preston (08:18.754)
Right.

Michael Preston (08:33.486)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (08:40.142)
Hahaha

Thomas Westenholz (08:41.566)
We are all guided by emotion. know if there’s damage to the emotional brain, we are unable to make decisions. So we are all guided in our actions by our emotions, right? And I think that’s important. And also, if we actually look at how the brain process information, none of us have very good memory and recollection of exactly what happened. We will believe we do, because how the memory is stored feels absolutely real. So we are certain that we have the right details. But when we actually looked and…

Overcoming blocks to sexual communication.

Michael Preston (08:46.862)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (08:50.702)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (09:03.176)
yeah.

Thomas Westenholz (09:10.826)
how accurate people’s perception was and retelling of events. It’s very faulty and inaccurate for pretty much all of us. And we tend to overestimate how precise we think we are in description of what happened. So it’s just again to accept, I guess, how the brain is wired for all of us, that we aren’t actually that good at recollecting and remember exactly the facts of what happened. And often when we say this, I’m just telling the facts.

Michael Preston (09:18.679)
all of us.

Michael Preston (09:29.282)
Mm-hmm.

Thomas Westenholz (09:38.802)
It’s actually a way of saying, I feel really uncomfortable about the emotional intensity. So I’m trying to protect myself a little bit here. And then we start debating the facts, which means we are completely missing each other.

Michael Preston (09:43.118)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Preston (09:51.17)
Completely. And often it ends in a very familiar phrase. So if you’re listening in, it will end with someone saying, what are we even arguing about? Like it gets so lost in the weeds that we even forget why we started arguing in the first place because there’s all these things and it goes very quickly from what you just said to what you said three months ago to what you always say whenever this happens. And then suddenly it’s just kicked up.

Thomas Westenholz (10:01.556)
Yes.

Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (10:18.176)
Yes.

Michael Preston (10:18.858)
and nobody knows what we’re talking about anymore. That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (10:20.83)
And we get lost in the noise, right? It’s literally getting lost in the noise and we don’t hear anything. And I think one of the things actually I loved the most about EFT that it taught me was how to interrupt well, right? So a lot of the time when this noise start going off and it’s like, and even I’m getting like, whoa, right? And part of what I have to do, and of course for you too, right? That we learn in EFT is how to interrupt, but in a way that doesn’t escalate, right?

Michael Preston (10:32.461)
Yes.

Michael Preston (10:43.456)
yeah.

Yep. That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (10:47.942)
And it happens frequently when people come in in the beginning, having to interrupt ears.

Michael Preston (10:51.32)
They’re primed. Their systems are already primed. If the goal is generally, have to win this fight, then every time they try to talk about anything, it’s going to very quickly escalate. Like you said, it turns into find the bad guy. So if you’re interested in more about that, Sue Johnson wrote a book called Hold Me Tight. It’s really great. It’s going to explain a few different ways that we can fight. One of them is find the bad guy, which is just…

Thomas Westenholz (10:58.591)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (11:07.924)
Yes.

Michael Preston (11:19.464)
shooting blame at the other person. Well, if you didn’t do this, well, if you hadn’t done that, well, you did this first. No, you started it here. Going back and forth over how we got here, right, totally misses the fact that we need to find a way to say, this is what we do and this is where we end up. And some days I start it, some days you start it, but there is no doubt when it starts where we’re heading. We’re heading right here, right? Right into this disconnection, right into the winner of the argument.

Thomas Westenholz (11:29.29)
guess.

Thomas Westenholz (11:44.128)
That’s right. That’s right.

Michael Preston (11:48.908)
And I got to say, I don’t want to go, you know what? I’m not going to say it that’s going to take us on a trail and I don’t want to do that. But here’s what I’ll say. Let’s take a second. So we just talked about a little bit of high level on the avoiding side, right? Eventually the avoidant partner is more likely to say something and walk away and just like end it. Cause they’re getting, that’s when they’re getting their own overwhelmed that it’s harder for them to ignore the emotion that they’ve been.

working really hard, they get overwhelmed and then they walk away. Usually they’ll say to go get some kind of clarity or just to cool down, a very helpful move for the relationship. But unfortunately, that particular move sets their partner alarm bell off and saying, they’re just, now they’re just walking away. This is how they win. And so let’s take a second. What’s happening on the other side of this thing where the other partner is trying to win this thing as well? And what’s going on for them?

Thomas Westenholz (12:38.484)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (12:46.0)
Yes. Well, I think often on the other side, let’s say if it’s a more anxious one, is really trying to get an emotional cue sent over, but it’s being missed because they now been sucked into this logical debate, right? It’s almost like it’s so intoxicating, we get sucked into it. So they have lost probably track of their own message or maybe don’t know what it is or how to communicate it. So now…

Michael Preston (12:59.693)
Yeah.

Michael Preston (13:08.366)
so often,

Thomas Westenholz (13:10.068)
they feel more and more unheard. The more we go into the logic, actually, the more distressed they become because the emotional cue that they need are being missed and kind of sank further and further down into the ocean. And they’re just watching it sink deeper and deeper down. So for them, this become more and more they’re like, no, what I need is really sinking. It’s now a hundred yards down. Right. And then the person, as you said, leave because now they start feeling emotions and that’s too distressing and the logic didn’t work. So they avoidance like I’m out of here.

Michael Preston (13:29.646)
That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (13:38.898)
Logic didn’t help and I can’t get this calm down. Yes, so I’m out of here. Now they are, my God, it’s 100 yards down in the ocean and he’s swimming away. Now I have to get this on my own, right? So that’s even more distressing and they can react in different ways. They might collapse or they might chase after the avoidant even more because they’re like, no, you really have, you can’t just leave me right to do this.

Michael Preston (13:40.364)
Yep. It’s only getting worse.

Michael Preston (13:49.994)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Thomas Westenholz (14:04.424)
And then they avoid and get, me some bloody space. This is too much, too intense. You’re too emotional, whatever it is. Right. And they completely missed each other. And it’s quite common to see this cycle in distressed couples. They find the bad guy. Right. And also often they carried it for so long, not having been able to say some of these things that when it comes in, it’s just, it explode and it just, just comes out and out and out. Right. And it’s like all these things I have to say.

Michael Preston (14:08.558)
Mm-hmm.

Thomas Westenholz (14:33.428)
where they’re kind of really, really missing each other.

Michael Preston (14:36.782)
That’s right. So, and this is the danger, right? This is the danger in trying to win is somebody in a winning losing situation, somebody comes out on top, right? That’s how games work. That’s how winning and losing. If you’re going to find a winner in this argument, you’re going to create a loser as well. Right. And what have we accomplished at that point? Like what have, what’s the goal here? Right.

Thomas Westenholz (15:02.336)
The relationship lost. Yes.

Michael Preston (15:05.396)
It is the, if my goal is to have a connected, respectful, loving, caring relationship and the way I go about these arguments and trying to win, the only way to do that is to push my partner down. We’re both doing it, right? We’re both trying to get the upper hand here. There is no way in that kind of

navigating differences, navigating a conflict. There is no way to have a meaningful one-to-one relationship where there isn’t a partner who feels like they’ve got the upper hand and one who feels like they’re on the lower end. The more the relationship feels like the only way is to have the upper hand, then both partners are going to constantly work for the upper hand.

rather than work for hand in hand. I like that. That was fun to say. Right? If we’re going for the upper hand, we’ll never have hand in hand. Right?

Thomas Westenholz (16:04.576)
That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (16:08.736)
Yes. I like that. Yes. Yes. And if you win the argument, you lose the relationship. So that’s it, right? What is it you actually want to accomplish here? Yeah. And what do I actually get out of being right? Because I think in being right, what we’re actually saying, I want to be validated. I want to be heard. That’s a real need behind wanting to be right. Yeah. It’s that I’m desperately

Michael Preston (16:18.114)
Yeah.

What have you won?

Michael Preston (16:30.838)
Right.

That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (16:37.12)
for the avoidant trying to get across that I’m getting overwhelmed, I’m feeling attacked, I’m feeling criticized. And I would like you to see that that’s what’s happening, right? And for the other person is, I really can’t get you to see the emotional distress I’m having here, because you keep trying to talk about this in your logical way, right?

Michael Preston (16:55.52)
It’s huge. Cause what you’re now naming is, okay, if we all know this, like there, there’s probably not a listener out there that thinks this is a good idea, right? There’s not a listener out there that thinks, yeah, I want to have the upper hand over my partner and feel like I’m dominating them. Probably not.

Thomas Westenholz (17:14.74)
Or if they do, then maybe we should be concerned about our relationship. Yes.

Michael Preston (17:17.142)
Well, yeah, I mean, it’s just not a lasting relationship, right? They’ll likely have gone through a myriad of relationships. But even if that is someone out there, right? Even if you’re listening, no, I do like having the upper hand in a relationship. Examine your fears, right? That’s coming from a very strategic place in your world where not having the upper hand has cost you a lot, right? So I want to, that’s again, just coming back to that plain humanity, people…

We don’t naturally just want the upper hand, but life can teach us we better have it. And then we’ll start going for it. Right. And then we’ll never put ourselves in a position where someone has the upper hand over us. And what happens for that person, right? That, that is going to feel I’ve got to have the upper hand. Two truths are very real. If I don’t have the upper hand, somebody else will. And if somebody has the upper hand over me, they’ve used it to harm me along the way.

Thomas Westenholz (17:52.458)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (18:08.48)
That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (18:13.898)
That’s right. And I think we talked about in an earlier podcast about the models of the world, right? And I think this says a lot about how people’s model of the world is. Because if our model of the world is that the world is a fearful place, then we do have to win. And that’s how we are going to interact with the world. We are going to have to try and be on top, right? Because if everything is about life or death, threats, and being the predator or the prey, then of course we are going to engage with this model, right?

Michael Preston (18:22.926)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (18:27.928)
then you have to win. There is no other option.

Michael Preston (18:41.207)
Of course.

Thomas Westenholz (18:41.458)
And we then have to win and we have to be right and the other person have to be wrong. Exactly.

Michael Preston (18:44.366)
So that’s so important, right? Because if we don’t get that part, right? If we don’t get that part, then we’re not ever going to be able to understand why people do the things they do. And if we can’t understand why they do the things that they do, then we can’t help them examine it and consider a new way. Because while, if that’s true, right? If that’s what’s guiding people is that the world has never treated me as an equal. And the world has always used me as kind of, I think about a boot mat.

Right. Just a place to wipe the muck off of their day. Then I don’t want to be that to anybody again. And so I’ve created a way of being in this world that says I’m going to stay on top. Right. And unfortunately, that means some people are going to be their boot heel, right? That’s going to be the thing that they create, right? Which is again, the way we organize to keep us up has to have other people down. But the other thing that will be true is

likely they will have never been able to consider that life could be different. They will have never, there would be no model for them to say, there’s a couple choices here, right? Their model says either you’re on top or you’re on bottom and those are the only options. The model has never been for them. There’s a way to live as equals and as real partners having felt supported.

and knowing I can support.

Thomas Westenholz (20:15.274)
That’s right. And you know, what you’re saying now reminded me of a reaction, you know, I had from someone who was very, very avoidant and very much had this model of the world when suddenly his partner responded to his first time ever being properly vulnerable. Right. And I said, so how is this for you as your partner respond in this way? And he said, it feels really good, but also very strange. Very, because what he’s saying is it feels good.

Michael Preston (20:30.371)
Mm.

Michael Preston (20:41.026)
very strange

Thomas Westenholz (20:45.13)
But it’s a totally different model of the world that I didn’t even know existed. And of course, that’s going to feel quite odd the first time we are exposed to it, right? So that’s actually quite a normal response to suddenly having this, where suddenly it’s almost like a little sense of confusion. While it feels good, it’s also confusing because suddenly as my model of the world has been that everything is a competition, one on top, one below. And suddenly that’s not what I’m experiencing.

Michael Preston (20:54.414)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Preston (21:10.947)
Mm-hmm.

That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (21:14.514)
So it’s nice, but it’s also quite confusing because I’m meant to relate to this. I don’t have a model for how to relate to this, right?

Michael Preston (21:21.014)
Yeah, no, absolutely. So I think about how, you know, the, the, the mantra is growing up, right. Especially in the, the kind of the rugged individualistic America, right. Which is pull yourself up by your bootstraps, right. Which is that’s it. That’s, that’s the model, right. My grandfather’s, told me this one time, he said the motto of his day, and he would have grown up in the born in the twenties, I believe.

Thomas Westenholz (21:36.19)
Yes.

Michael Preston (21:52.002)
Was he’s a good man who never asked for anything. Right. And so in other words, if he could do it alone, if he could do it by himself. Right. And, and in my world, go, man, he is a lonely man who’s never asked for anything. Right. And so then you have, then you have the phrase, it’s a dog eat dog world out there. And, that, that gives you a glimpse.

Into the way that we begin to use these working models, right? If it’s a dog eat dog world out there That means I open my front door and I have to be prepared to eat right That’s the mantras I can remember I wasn’t I wasn’t growing up in a world where people said hey, by the way, if you need something we’re here or Or hey this world it’s hard, but it’s also filled with good people But those aren’t the the mantra is given to us like hey, they’re gonna they’re gonna meet

hard things in the world and you’re going to overcome them. Right. It was, it was more about like, man, get out there and knock it out. Right. Keep going, keep striving. And the idea that, Hey, we, I think about the phrase, the rising tide raises all ships. Right. There’s that’s a much more companionistic way of looking at life that says, if I can help my

Thomas Westenholz (23:14.665)
Yes.

Michael Preston (23:17.366)
my brother come up, right? If I can help others around me level up, that’s only going to level all of us up, right? So I don’t have to be afraid of picking my partner up and helping them rise to the top and say, go as far and as far and as hard as you want, and I’m always gonna be here and I’ll be right there and it won’t matter because as you go higher, I go higher with you it’s gonna be fantastic. That’s not the model, but we’re.

Thomas Westenholz (23:23.872)
That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (23:43.253)
Yes.

Michael Preston (23:44.878)
we’re dealing with when we’re getting stuck in this kind of argument.

Thomas Westenholz (23:47.882)
That’s right. And you know, again, I don’t want to go into politics at all, but I just saw this little video that was very interesting that relate to what you’re saying, which was a clip. And I don’t know if it’s taken out of context, but Moss said something on a podcast about the weakness of humanity is their empathy. And then there was this, I think she was a Norwegian researcher who responded to this and who was actually talking about that. What the research has shown is humans were actually not the apex predator by any metrics.

Michael Preston (23:55.516)
Mm.

Michael Preston (24:04.15)
Oof.

Thomas Westenholz (24:16.136)
measured across anything, not even, we didn’t even use to have the biggest brain. We were not the strongest, et cetera, et cetera. And what actually helped us survive and be strong was empathy. Cause that gave us the ability to collaborate and coming together and lift each other up and impacts and collaboration. were the apex predator and we were strong, but alone we weren’t right. And she was then exactly, and she was talking about all the research.

Michael Preston (24:37.878)
Right. Alone we’re dead.

Thomas Westenholz (24:43.636)
that has now shown that all the most effective teams also in big companies are the one where there’s a highest level of empathy, because there’s a better sense of collaboration. So they perform much better. So her scientific argument was empathy is what makes us strong. Fear is actually what makes us weak, because it makes us exactly, because it makes us pull away and act as individuals and see the world as you versus me. And that makes us weak and that creates conflict, right? It’s basically what’s behind.

Michael Preston (24:50.414)
Mm.

Michael Preston (24:58.112)
Mmm. Wow. I love that.

Michael Preston (25:08.014)
That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (25:12.288)
pretty much all geopolitical conflict, yes.

Michael Preston (25:12.322)
This is what we’re talking about. This is what we’re naming. When we get into this thing, we let go of our empathy. And the thing that we hear is it’s me versus you. And in this world, if it’s me versus you, my brain says it better be me because that’s survival. Always that’s survival. everybody in this, this is the problem. Okay. I like the way we’re putting this. The reason why having a winner in an argument isn’t going to work.

Thomas Westenholz (25:19.146)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (25:23.818)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (25:29.568)
That’s right. That’s right.

Michael Preston (25:41.74)
is because it’s a survival mechanism that says you versus me rather than how can we find the we. How can we win together? then really redefining what winning would be. Winning in this situation would be how can we find a way to understand what happened to you and understand what happened to me so that we can stop coming back to this place.

Thomas Westenholz (25:49.504)
That’s right. And how can we win together? How can we?

Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (26:11.36)
That’s right. And what is it actually that we both need but are not actually saying in this argument? Because what’s very fascinating when we watch people have to find the bad guy, right? And say, you did this, no, you did this, no, you said this, but you did it first. And they go ahead in this way is that neither of them are actually expressing what they need. They’re focusing exactly, exactly. So all the energy is going into that, right?

Michael Preston (26:22.018)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Preston (26:32.462)
Well, they can’t. They’re surviving.

Thomas Westenholz (26:40.136)
And that means that they’re missing what can actually help them both feel better, which is what is it actually that you need in this moment, right? What is it actually that’s making you distress and how can I help? That’s getting lost because you’re right in survival, the brain isn’t focused on that, right? And it’s almost like we are talking a micro scale. happened at a macro scale is what we call war, right? It’s happening on a mini scale here in a relationship dynamic, but it’s actually the same thing in the brain that’s happening.

Michael Preston (26:43.95)
Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Michael Preston (26:51.244)
Mm-hmm.

Can’t do it.

Michael Preston (27:02.19)
That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (27:09.212)
It’s suddenly I’m seeing the world as enemy me versus them instead of we’re here together to collaborate.

Michael Preston (27:16.184)
So that is so important because we’ve got to find a way to collaborate with curiosity and the life-saving entity that is empathy. Right. So how do we, like how do we help people listening right now connect to their curiosity and their empathy in order to get out

of this winning the argument cycle.

Thomas Westenholz (27:51.968)
That’s a really good question. I would say if we have to do a sequence of steps, step number one is about, oh, we can give you this message that there’s nothing wrong with you. There’s nothing wrong with you. And as long as you think there’s something wrong with you, you don’t have a choice but to defend. Yeah. So there’s nothing wrong with you. Even if you made a mistake, doesn’t make you bad. It just means you made a mistake. So I think that’s number one, because you can see

Michael Preston (28:03.533)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Preston (28:10.03)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (28:15.202)
Yeah. Yes, sir.

Thomas Westenholz (28:19.708)
in people as we talked about that don’t have shame, that de-escalation can happen much, much faster. Yeah. Yes, please do.

Michael Preston (28:25.294)
Yep. Oh, can I tell you a story? Oh, this is, this is so great. Cause what you just said. All right. So went to America last week, uh, to work in Atlanta with the EFT community there was amazing. Had a great time. I’m in Birmingham and I flew out of London because it’s direct flight to Atlanta. I don’t have to go through Amsterdam, which is much nicer. So I get down to LHR. Uh, I like to get to the airport early. get there around 12 45 for my four o’clock flight.

Because I like to get on the other side of security and relax. These, all you people out there who want to get to the airport an hour before your flight and then run through security and get on that plane sweating, you are not traveling with me. But here’s what happens. I go to the counter. I pull out my passport. As always, I open up to the photo page to give to the person. And it is my wife’s photo. I have my wife’s passport.

Thomas Westenholz (29:05.696)
you

Michael Preston (29:25.406)
in London, my passport is in Birmingham, two hours away. And I have a flight in four hours and the flight closes. It was one o’clock. So my flight was three hours away. mean, my flight was three hours to my flight, two hour drive. They close, they close the check in an hour before and I have to have my passport at three PM and we are 15 minutes till one. And I call my wife and the first thing out of my mouth.

Thomas Westenholz (29:49.779)
Yeah.

Michael Preston (29:55.052)
was did you pack your passport in my bag? The blame just came flying out of me. Just the first thing. Because I’m panicking. And she goes, I put the one you had on the bed. And she’s right. I had tossed the passport there.

Thomas Westenholz (30:02.304)
yes, it’s her fault, Michael. It’s her fault.

Michael Preston (30:23.234)
But she was helping me get packed and she was just kind of putting things in. she put the she technically put the passport in there. Now, when I go to put my passport in my bag, I stare at the photo and I lower it slowly into the bag and then I zip it into my bag. And I am like, I’m super neurotic about this and I can’t believe I didn’t check it like and I could feel the thing coming up in us in that moment like, we’re about to fight over who over whose fault this is. And I was like.

Hold on. We do not need to find anybody to blame here. The situation is I am two hours away. I have the wrong passport. And if I’m going to make this flight, we’re going to have to work together. What do we need to do next? We scrambled. A neighbor was heading to London and said, I’ll run it to him. And he tore off for London like immediately.

Thomas Westenholz (31:21.524)
That’s a good neighbor,

Michael Preston (31:22.624)
It’s a good neighbor. That’s a good neighbor. But he got there and I checked into my flight 12 minutes early. I mean, 12 minutes, we’re 12 minutes late, left in that countdown. And so what I want to highlight there was in the, like there’s a choice point where it goes, I can either go down this route and figure out who’s really at fault. But the reality is who cares? Who’s at fault? Who cares how I ended up at the airport with the wrong passport?

Thomas Westenholz (31:47.359)
Yes.

Michael Preston (31:52.532)
I didn’t check my bag. My wife put it in the bag. Who cares? This moment was more about, we’ve got to find it. And this is happens. Couples that get caught up in finding out who’s at fault and who’s going to win this one are unable to move towards solutions. So a lot of couples come in saying, what’s the solution? What’s the solution? And I’ll say, I don’t know. But what I do know is you’ll never make it to a solution if you get caught up in this argument.

Thomas Westenholz (31:55.764)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (32:11.872)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (32:21.966)
If you can, I had to take a breath. So here’s the first thing I had to do is I had to recognize I’m about to take this to the next level. Right? I’m the, just so you know, I’m more of the anxious pursuer. I had to stop myself because I didn’t want to be at fault. I didn’t want to be causing this chaos in our life. I didn’t want to be the reason that I’m going to miss my flight. And so it was like, man, my wife could be the reason. She didn’t want to be the reason that I was going to miss this flight. Right?

Thomas Westenholz (32:47.977)
Hahaha!

Michael Preston (32:51.352)
She’s like, no, no, no, no, you put it on the bed with all your other stuff. All I did was pack that stuff. And man, it was an invitation, right? We invited each other into the boxing ring. And I had to take a breath. And I had to recognize one, I had the hard startup. She answered the phone and I didn’t start with, hey, babe, how are you? Cool, cool, cool, cool. I have the wrong passport. Right? I started with

Thomas Westenholz (32:57.322)
Yeah.

Thomas Westenholz (33:19.722)
Yes.

Michael Preston (33:20.812)
Did you pack the wrong passport in my bag?

Thomas Westenholz (33:25.738)
But what you did have, and I think that’s an important step here, right? You did have the awareness to see we are going into this cycle. So I can now choose not to do it, right? So I think that is an important first step in this, right? Is that you were able, because otherwise it would have kept escalating and you probably wouldn’t have got your passport and then you would have come home.

Michael Preston (33:33.782)
And then I had to, yes, and then I had to do that.

Yeah.

Michael Preston (33:46.762)
I would have never, I would have never, I didn’t have enough time to spare.

Thomas Westenholz (33:50.174)
That’s right. And then you would have been even more angry when you came home and then escalation will just continue. And this could have linked it for exactly. Yes.

Michael Preston (33:53.006)
Oh man. It would have cost us big money because I would have missed a whole day of work and I had a very busy day. I mean, it would have been, but it was that moment of going either I like literally you come to a fork in the road and this is what most couples aren’t able to do yet because they aren’t able to see the pattern. They aren’t because we’re stuck in winning, right?

Thomas Westenholz (34:05.972)
Yes.

Michael Preston (34:19.426)
Then I have to, here’s two things you have to be able to know. You have to be able to say, if I admit that I took us the wrong direction, is my partner going to throw it in my face? And if my partner is going to throw it in my face, there’s no way for me to admit I took us the wrong direction. But if I can build trust with my partner that says, Hey, there’s a reasonable reason I’m doing this is because I’m panicking and it’s not where I want to take us. Will my partner deescalate with me and say, Hey,

Thanks, you’re right. No big deal. What do we need to do? If there’s no assurance that our partner will deescalate with us, right? And the only way we get to that spot isn’t by just giving it a go, but actually talking about our talking, right? This is the thing. We have to talk about our talk. And so we have to be able to say to our partner, do you notice that sometimes we do this and I don’t feel safe enough to admit I’m wrong because I don’t know what you’ll do with that information. It could be weaponized. That’s my fear.

And the other partner is probably feeling the same way. Like, yeah, I don’t know that I’m going to be given grace in those moment either. Right? So this is so important, but if you can begin to have those conversations around your conversations, right? So we’re saying, don’t wait till you get into the cycle to try and stop it suddenly and not have any conversation with your partner before this. You got to start having the conversations about your conversations so that in the moment you can start to catch it. Because what happens for

Thomas Westenholz (35:25.472)
That’s right. That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (35:42.794)
Yes.

Michael Preston (35:47.288)
couples is they’re moving so fast that the exit ramp that I was able to take isn’t available to them. They’re going too quick. They don’t see it, right? It’s gone.

Thomas Westenholz (35:57.288)
Yeah, that’s right. That’s right. I like that analogy. I always say if we are driving 120 miles an hour, we can’t turn. If we are driving 20, we have lots of flexibility, right? So spot on.

Michael Preston (36:03.714)
We can’t turn lots of flexibility. Right? And so that’s what happened. Right? I could feel my body amping up. I could feel my heart rate going up. And I was able to say, pause. Where, where’s the exit? And the exit was, Hey, we don’t need to figure out who’s to blame here. I don’t need to be at fault. You don’t need to be at fault. What we do need to figure out.

is how am I going to make this flight? And in that moment, my wife didn’t say anything cruel or mean or like throw out like, well, you started it. Like you, she just said, you’re right. Thank you. And we moved on. Right?

Thomas Westenholz (36:35.434)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (36:50.24)
And this is what you described. It’s a great story. So thank you for sharing that. And I think what is so wonderful here is actually, again, we can look at the EFT as a model for this, right? Is that when we get a model that there’s a cycle that’s a problem and not the other person, that allows us opportunity to step out away from you are to blame or I am to blame, to actually the cycle is to blame.

Michael Preston (36:54.466)
Yeah, yeah.

Michael Preston (37:05.953)
Yes, that’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (37:16.8)
Because that’s what’s sucking us in and becomes almost addictive to the point where once we are in it, we are spinning so fast we can’t get out. Right? And you were able to stop before you got sucked in the 120 miles an hour and say, I don’t want to be in this cycle. Right? So we don’t have to find a bad person. Yes.

Michael Preston (37:33.632)
It wanted me to go with it. Right. Cause the cycle wants that. The cycle wants us to go down that road. It wants to, right. And it takes effort to say, I’m not doing that because I know where that leads. Right. I did say, I did say to my wife, this is why I think we should apply for the amazing race because the ability to pivot in a, in a crucial moment is really helpful on, are you familiar with your amazing race? It’s a, it’s this, it’s a show about couples that like.

Thomas Westenholz (37:38.887)
yeah, it’s one to suck you in. Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (37:58.484)
I haven’t heard that in a while.

Michael Preston (38:02.976)
race across the world each day and then the winner gets a million dollars or something like that. It’s fantastic. But like you can watch this show, it’s really fun. You should watch it because you’ll see couples that do really well on the show, it’s because they don’t get trapped by the cycle. Couples that fall apart and cannot win anything on the show are ones that end up pitted against each other in a moment of crisis and they completely fall apart and they can’t finish the task. They can’t move on because they can’t

Thomas Westenholz (38:04.704)
Nice.

Thomas Westenholz (38:08.65)
Nice.

Thomas Westenholz (38:17.289)
Yes.

Michael Preston (38:31.64)
come together as a team. if you want to watch some cycles take off, Watch the amazing race. It’s got like 36 seasons of it. So there’s loads of clips of all this happening. But this is what I think is so crucial for our listeners to understand is if you’re moved, like I tell couples all the time, we can go fast or we can go far. We cannot do both. And you’re going to have to find a way, maybe this is with good help.

Thomas Westenholz (38:36.128)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (38:56.372)
Yes.

Michael Preston (39:01.43)
Or maybe some of the prompts that we’ve used on the show before of just noticing what happens to you. When you hear that voice of blame, what is the meaning you start to make out of that moment when your partner says something that hits you as blame? What is the meaning that your partner makes when you respond to that blame with criticism or an I wouldn’t if you hadn’t? What happens to your body? Where does it come alive?

Thomas Westenholz (39:16.832)
Yes.

Michael Preston (39:31.726)
And then what do you do that sets your partner up to keep moving in that same direction? If one partner sets the tone and then the other partner matches, then you better believe the other partner is coming back matching that again. And then we create this cycle that each person is setting their partner up to keep staying in the fight.

Thomas Westenholz (39:45.525)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (39:50.846)
Yeah, that’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (39:58.857)
Yeah.

Michael Preston (40:00.744)
rather than finding a way to say, we slow down here? And can we find the exit ramp? I hear something happened to you and it’s really important that I understand what happened.

Thomas Westenholz (40:04.969)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (40:12.786)
Yes. And, and you know, it’s okay to also do a restart to say, actually this, this exact, right? Like, and just say, this doesn’t feel good. Can we, can we just stop for a moment? Can we just stop? Can we just restart? Something got off here to the wrong end. Yeah. And can we just try and redo it again or take a little moment to have a breath and then try and redo it again. Right. And that’s totally okay because you don’t have to

Michael Preston (40:17.801)
yeah. I’ve got stories of those too.

Michael Preston (40:29.496)
Yeah, something got off.

Thomas Westenholz (40:42.538)
take it to the end. Often when we get started on something, we feel we have to take it to the end. So when the argument has started, we have to complete it to find the end, which is who were the bad person. But it’s actually okay to not complete that race because it’s a shitty race in the first place. So it’s totally okay to say, actually, let’s just redo this race. Let’s go back. Exactly. Let’s go back to the starting line and try again. Right?

Michael Preston (40:44.803)
Isn’t it?

Mm-hmm.

That’s right.

That’s right.

No. It’s terrible.

Michael Preston (41:02.745)
We just both lose at the end.

Michael Preston (41:07.682)
Right. I remember one time I got upset and I got angry. This is some time ago at something very small my wife did and I walked out of the room.

Thomas Westenholz (41:23.71)
I like you’re

Michael Preston (41:25.078)
Yeah. But the thing that I was working on at the time was catching myself and noticing these things and really seeing how the cycle played out. Right. And what I was beginning to learn was how much sadness was underneath my own anger. Right. And what I did was I walked back in to the kitchen where I just gruffled my way out of. Right. And I said to my wife,

Can I try that again? And she looks at me and she goes, that’d be great. Like that wasn’t any fun. And you really messed that up. You should probably try it again to be fair. Right. But you know, that was a really gracious response from her. Right. Even in that, right. Because again, this is an opportunity for a partner to either respond graciously and invite a new way of doing it or

to just blow them off, right? So again, where you want to take this relationship, what move do you make and how does that set your relationship into motion and where it continues to go? So again, these are pivot moments. She said, yes, you can try again, right? And what I said to her was, I’m sorry that I let my unspoken sadness turn into anger.

Thomas Westenholz (42:25.78)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (42:49.162)
Yes.

Michael Preston (42:50.562)
What I’m really sad about is you’re leaving and you’re going, she was going somewhere for like a week or so. And I don’t like it when you’re gone that long. Cause I miss you, but I haven’t wanted to tell you that. Cause I don’t want you to feel bad about going. Right. There’s so much going on underneath that. Right. But it’s, can I take the time to identify the softer thing that’s really going on and send a more clear signal, getting angry at my wife.

is not a clear signal that what I’m trying to say is I’m sad that you’re leaving, right? That does not say the same thing. But when I shared that with her, do you think that my wife got more upset with me or did she soften with me and come and comfort me?

Thomas Westenholz (43:25.024)
Yes. Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (43:35.768)
Of course, he softens more, right? Of course, because now the signal is clear. It’s not threatening. That means that empathy, as we talked about, can come online, right? And I think there’s a great beauty in both being able to do the reset we’re talking about and then getting a second chance to actually become more clear is what is actually happening beneath my reactive response, right? And, you know, the reset, we all need it. Like just because we’re therapists, we also need it.

Michael Preston (43:37.304)
She’s often more.

That’s right.

Michael Preston (43:44.771)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (43:50.22)
Mm.

Michael Preston (43:57.902)
That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (44:03.58)
I had recently as well, you my partner was selling a house and they stayed eight and then the buyer were messing her about and really trying to bully her, right? To, push the price down. And she was getting super stressed right over it. And as she kept sharing how they were doing these bullying strategies, I felt my nervous system, my protectiveness come up and get more aggressive. And in that moment, she actually needed my calm.

Michael Preston (44:03.65)
Yeah.

Michael Preston (44:12.974)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Preston (44:22.254)
you

Michael Preston (44:27.488)
Yeah. Yes. I do the same thing.

Thomas Westenholz (44:27.86)
She needed me to help calm, but I was getting more more wild up and said, fuck this, let me deal with it. I’ll have a go. Right. And this is right because of course my intention was to protect, but it wasn’t helpful for her. And then suddenly I realized how we were feeling a sense of disconnect. I could sense it in the moment. And I said to her, actually, can we just do a reset? Can I just take a breath? Because I’m seeing what I’m doing isn’t helpful for you, but I’m finding it very difficult because right now my anger is coming up.

Michael Preston (44:38.37)
Yes, that’s right.

Michael Preston (44:49.502)
Mm.

Thomas Westenholz (44:57.246)
and it’s kind of taking over because it wants me to protect you. But I’m seeing that actually I’m doing more harm than protection and that’s not my intent. And she said, yes, let’s just both take a breath. And then we just did and I took a few breaths. We got up, we actually shook a bit. I say, I had so much adrenaline in my system. Can we just shake? And we put on some music, did one dance to a nice Indian tune and then we could sit down. And I said, now I’m more calm.

Michael Preston (45:09.08)
Yeah.

Michael Preston (45:19.927)
Nice.

I would just love to be a fly on the wall and y’all navigating, getting out on an argument. Every time y’all start to argue, you just say, let’s put on some Indian music and shake around. I love it. I love it. Yeah. Look, I love it.

Thomas Westenholz (45:31.884)
Dude, we do a lot of the time, because it works amazing, right? I trained in somatic trauma therapy and the fact is, adrenaline is meant to have a physical response. That’s why we call it fight or flight. You’re meant to actually move the body. So while breathing can be great, sometimes if we are too aroused, it’s not enough to reset. So dancing works as an amazing way to discharge some of that adrenaline and then you get the tiredness and then it’s possible to breathe and then you can kind of do a reset, right?

Michael Preston (45:41.282)
Yeah, what a great tool for our listeners.

Michael Preston (45:49.485)
I love it.

Michael Preston (45:57.921)
Yeah.

Thomas Westenholz (46:00.564)
So actually I use that a lot to.

Michael Preston (46:00.586)
I love it. What you’re saying is this is how I slow myself down. Right? This is how I slow myself down so that I can think more clearly, hear more clearly, support my partner in what they need. Because when we start to get spun up, it’s like tunnel vision gets worse and worse the faster we go. Right? And then, and then what’ll happen is if our attempts at supporting them with our big anger energy that says how dare they ask you about.

Thomas Westenholz (46:05.404)
Absolutely exactly.

Thomas Westenholz (46:09.92)
Yes, express more clearly as Raya.

Thomas Westenholz (46:19.306)
Yes.

Michael Preston (46:27.694)
And then they’re taking it in and going, this is not helping me. Then we get frustrated because it’s like, can’t you see how this is all for you? And it’s, it’s not helping. Right. And so then, then that’s how the cycle goes. How can you not see? I’m just angry for you. is the, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da.

Thomas Westenholz (46:39.345)
Exactly.

Thomas Westenholz (46:45.224)
That’s right. That’s right. So this is why what we’re saying here is, hey, it’s also good to spot the cycle, but also knowing what are some of your own strategies that you know you can calm yourself down when you get really dysregulated. Because from that place, connection is impossible, right? And you’re right. I know that for me, I need movement and then I can breathe, right? But I need movement first, which is why I said, can we just stop? Because I can see I’m doing harm. I don’t want to do harm.

Michael Preston (46:58.83)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Preston (47:07.278)
That’s great. That’s great.

Thomas Westenholz (47:14.538)
but I can’t control it right now because I’m so angry. So I said, okay, can we please dance? And she straight away said yes. And she put on the tune, right? And then we do it. And suddenly we are laughing.

Michael Preston (47:21.742)
There you go. Well, that’s called an attuned response, a safe response, right? Who is going to prioritize how we are both going to win rather than finding the winner. Okay. All right. This seems like a really great place to land the plane because we’re going to push our time here.

Thomas Westenholz (47:26.709)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (47:32.608)
Yes.

That’s it.

Thomas Westenholz (47:40.65)
That’s right. So thank you for listening and we will be back next week.

Michael Preston (47:42.656)
Absolutely. What a fun episode. Thanks for those chats. That was really great.

Thomas Westenholz (47:49.768)
Amazing.