Speaking the Unspoken: Understanding and Expressing Your Needs in Relationships

11:05.19
Michael Preston
Yeah. Yeah, that’ll be good. All right. Well, welcome back to Couples in Focus. My name is Michael Preston, and I’m here with, ah to actually, Thomas, how do you say your last name?

11:17.41
Thomas
It is complicated. Thomas, Thomas, Western Halls, but you know, there’s not many people who get that right.

11:18.38
Michael Preston
It is just going with Thomas.

11:23.90
Thomas
Western Halls, yeah.

11:28.51
Thomas
Yeah, let’s go. Let’s stay with Thomas.

11:29.37
Michael Preston
me load tom Okay.

11:30.39
Thomas
That works actually fine.

11:31.82
Michael Preston
Okay. So welcome back to the couples in focus podcast, uh, where we are spending our time today and most of our podcasts will be focusing on where couples tend to struggle and how can we help couples find a way to get a handhold out of these places they’re struggling and back into a deeper, richer connection with one another.

11:56.80
Michael Preston
I am always delighted to have these chats with Thomas. So glad to hear. Good to see you after the Christmas holiday. We had a little break there.

12:05.39
Thomas
Yes.

12:05.45
Michael Preston
And here we are, still cold, still wintery outside, getting ready for the new year. um I hope hope your Christmas was well. How are you doing?

12:14.52
Thomas
Yeah, I’m feeling good. I really like the slowdown in pace. You know, I think throughout the year, we tend to get caught in this pace, right? Of everything that has to be done with kids, with work, with house, whatever happens, right?

12:24.02
Michael Preston
Absolutely.

12:28.85
Thomas
And I think often, and I think maybe not just for me, for a lot of people, it can be hard to slow down. So there’s something really nice about these festival periods that almost for, at least for me, it’s nice.

12:39.73
Thomas
It doesn’t mean it’s nice for everyone, but it’s nice to almost be feel forced to slow down, right? Cause a lot of clients are going away, take a little break for a week or two. And for me, it’s really a time to just make space for all these things. I keep delaying and delaying. And it even reminds me of a call I had today with a couple actually. I saw, oh, I only had one call today with a couple, but just this, you know, conversation where they said, Hey,

13:06.56
Thomas
Somehow along the way, we just got lost. It wasn’t anything particular.

13:09.25
Michael Preston
Yeah.

13:10.55
Thomas
There weren’t a big fracture. There were no betrayal. We just got lost in the kids, in the work, in in the dark, in everything. And we just kind of forgot each other, right?

13:22.96
Thomas
And I think IS is so common as we have learned to prioritize everything else, right? We know we are meant to make work a priority in our energy and our time consumption.

13:33.84
Michael Preston
Yeah.

13:34.18
Thomas
We know we have to make the kids a priority, but it’s so often, it’s so easy right to forget our partner as part of that needs, that energy, that investment, that time of dedicated attention and focus. right And I know that I used to be not very good at this, to be honest, and I used to forget this a lot.

13:54.03
Thomas
And now I really made it a practice to set aside dedicated time and attention, right? Because I know that trap and it’s there for all of us also, you know, us being a couple therapists doesn’t, you know, take us out of that equation.

14:07.50
Michael Preston
No, it doesn’t.

14:08.18
Thomas
We can also fall into this trap, right, of forgetting, because we’re so

14:08.66
Michael Preston
No, it doesn’t.

14:11.75
Michael Preston
It only makes us more aware of the fact that we’re dropping the ball.

14:14.69
Thomas
That’s it, that’s it. So for me, the festival period has been good, man. And it sounds like for you, you had a nice break with the kids and and your wife as well.

14:22.74
Michael Preston
We did, we did. Yeah, I don’t I don’t slow down by nature anyways, like I’m a pretty driven, fast paced person. um But this this holiday actually.

14:34.48
Michael Preston
Kind of, kind of did force me to slow down because with Christmas and the new year falling on the Wednesday, it just meant there wasn’t like space in the week to really see people because they were quite busy and and those things.

14:46.29
Michael Preston
And so, you know, when, when Christmas is a little bit later in the week, I usually sneak in a Monday or Tuesday sessions, but no, we couldn’t do that this time. So I really, I’m kind of sitting here going, wow, I’m taking two weeks off from seeing clients at least.

14:58.58
Michael Preston
And.

14:58.61
Thomas
Yes. Yes.

15:00.93
Michael Preston
I don’t know the last time I took two weeks off from seeing clients.

15:04.43
Thomas
yeah

15:04.51
Michael Preston
that you know and So that’s that’s really good. It’s been really good for us. um you know And tomorrow actually is my 17th anniversary.

15:12.69
Thomas
Amazing.

15:13.43
Michael Preston
Yeah, thankss thanks, thanks, thanks.

15:13.85
Thomas
Congratulations.

15:15.98
Michael Preston
And we put a lot of effort and work into keeping ah a really rich connection between the two of us. And even though it’s a a focus of our relationship, it’s still like,

15:28.99
Michael Preston
doesn’t always happen consistently, right?

15:31.25
Thomas
Yeah, yes.

15:32.08
Michael Preston
And we can find ou ourselves ah bogged down and both busy with work, both with lots to do, three children and the dog, right?

15:42.62
Thomas
Four children really, four children.

15:44.50
Michael Preston
Yeah. And it does. It happens quickly. And suddenly you look up and it’s like, hey, it’s it’s been too long since we had some time together.

15:47.15
Thomas
Yeah.

15:50.74
Michael Preston
What happened, right?

15:51.77
Thomas
yeah

15:52.52
Michael Preston
um Yeah, so even even when you’re being intentional about it, life has a way of getting in the way of really rich connection, ah which ah is one of the reasons why intentionality is such an important part of being in a relationship, a long-term, committed, loving, connected relationship. Without intentionality, theres there’s going to be a lot that falls by the wayside.

16:16.32
Thomas
Absolutely. And I think, you know, even, even skill, even knowledge alone will not do it. As you said, you need a very clear intention and priority, right?

16:22.56
Michael Preston
right

16:25.37
Thomas
And actually that has been super helpful for me. And I think this is kind of the side of the normal emotional focus. Copper therapy we talk about for me, this Setting an intention around what are my priorities in life? It makes it much easier to choose instead of getting lost in the priorities other people might have set for me, whether it’s expectation from work or from friends, whatever it is, right to remember. And I keep forgetting that name of the book.

16:51.05
Thomas
But there was this lady who wrote an amazing book. She worked in a hospice where people came to die, right? And she wrote about the regrets people had before they died. And it tend to pretty much always a top two. be One of them was not having lived an authentic life.

17:06.36
Thomas
And number two was not having spent enough time with loved ones. And that’s always a reminder for me to say, what am I doing? Why am I actually spending all this time doing these things to maybe build my business or whatever it is? Well, that’s so I can have time with my loved ones. So if it stops me having time with my loved ones, or I don’t have time for my partner, then what’s the point in me doing this, right?

17:28.32
Thomas
So for me it’s been really helpful to reevaluate my priorities so I have almost a hierarchy and I can always say if all my time is on this so I don’t have time to the one that’s up here that doesn’t make any sense.

17:40.24
Michael Preston
and Absolutely. I really appreciate that. It’s like the ah it’s like the like the example of how to fill the jar. You got to put the big rocks in first, then the small rocks, and then the sand.

17:51.01
Thomas
Yes.

17:52.38
Michael Preston
Everything will fit if you if you do the big rocks first, and then the next size, and then pour in the sand.

17:53.75
Thomas
Yes.

17:56.96
Michael Preston
But if you just start with the sand, the tiny things, it’ll fill the jar up, and you won’t be able to get the big rocks in.

18:01.53
Thomas
Exactly. and And even like with taking breaks, cause now we’re talking about the holiday breaks, often that can be hard cause you know, we work for ourselves, right?

18:05.91
Michael Preston
Yeah.

18:08.70
Thomas
Or anybody who might, so we don’t get paid.

18:08.69
Michael Preston
That’s right.

18:10.90
Thomas
So if I suddenly don’t work for a day, well that’s goodbye to 500 pounds.

18:11.59
Michael Preston
Yeah. Right.

18:16.32
Thomas
But then the reason, the way I then able to do it is to tell myself, well, what is the point of getting all that money? If I never actually then have time to spend time with my family, right?

18:23.30
Michael Preston
right

18:26.63
Thomas
If I can’t be there when it matters with the kids.

18:26.70
Michael Preston
Right.

18:29.46
Thomas
So, you know, I had this dilemma when my daughter had her Christmas play, right? And suddenly it got moved and it turned out to be a whole day out of work, right? And that’s a lot of money lost.

18:37.72
Michael Preston
right

18:38.81
Thomas
But then I thought, you know what? These are the moments you’ll remember.

18:42.00
Michael Preston
That’s right.

18:42.07
Thomas
Did dad show up or did he not show up?

18:44.49
Michael Preston
That’s right.

18:44.55
Thomas
And the money is meant to support me being able to do that, not take away these moments.

18:47.90
Michael Preston
Right.

18:49.61
Thomas
And that helped me luckily make a wise choice, at least in that instance of showing off to her her play, right? Instead of going to work and and earning another 500 pounds.

18:58.83
Michael Preston
Right. No, no, that’s that’s it’s massive. and that’s every That’s everything. right is do we I remember this. um

19:09.65
Michael Preston
I went to a dear, dear friend’s father’s funeral one time and the words, his, his sister, the man’s daughter spoke at the funeral really, really resonated with me.

19:25.66
Michael Preston
And she kept saying that growing up, her father always chose them. And she said, I didn’t realize it was odd to have your dad come home on lunchtime.

19:33.17
Thomas
Yes.

19:36.61
Thomas
Yes.

19:38.15
Michael Preston
He was always there. And repeatedly throughout her life, the refrain that she kept using at the funeral was, he always chose us.

19:46.29
Thomas
Yes.

19:48.81
Michael Preston
And it really, really spoke deeply to me. Like, I want my i want that. I want for my children to know when they grow up, you know they go, dad chose us. He chose to spend time with us.

19:59.12
Michael Preston
He chose to do these things. He chose to be at the Christmas play. He chose to be home, be around as much as he could.

20:07.74
Thomas
Yes.

20:08.22
Michael Preston
and And I know that’s not a choice everyone can make, right? So I want to be really clear there that it’s a it’s a particular place to be to be able to make that choice.

20:10.85
Thomas
Yes.

20:19.61
Michael Preston
And that’s not something that everybody can do. And and in many ways, You know, kids will grow up and say, my dad, I’ve heard also, you know, my dad chose to work hard to give us everything he could possibly give us.

20:34.12
Michael Preston
Right.

20:34.27
Thomas
Yeah.

20:34.70
Michael Preston
And so that the experiential piece of it is listening to what it means to have a, have a dad work to elevate and offer.

20:50.08
Michael Preston
those things in life or or a mom, right? Single moms. I might um and know my mom worked when I was really young um and she did she did everything she could for us, right?

21:02.45
Thomas
yes

21:02.90
Michael Preston
And and so’m not it’s not just being there in a physical sense, but being there in and how and why we work, right?

21:05.72
Thomas
Yes.

21:11.17
Michael Preston
Which I think is what you’re naming as well. Like we work in order to do these moments with our kids we We do these works to support being there for our kids you know in a really impactful and meaningful way that our kids can feel.

21:29.01
Thomas
Yeah. And I think it’s spot on. And I think this choice or dedication really answer this very fundamental question. We often talk about an EFT, right?

21:39.69
Thomas
Do I matter?

21:41.04
Michael Preston
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

21:41.78
Thomas
Right. that’s That’s it. It really is that. And you’re right. Of course, not everybody has the opportunity to just take time off work. We get that. That doesn’t mean they’re not a good parent.

21:51.01
Michael Preston
Yeah.

21:51.32
Thomas
it Just if it’s possible right where it’s possible it’s about making those choices right because it really answer that underlying question of course that’s not necessarily a conscious question but the question do I matter and when the nervous system here yeah I do matter then there’s this calm and safety in the world right.

22:10.50
Michael Preston
That’s right.

22:10.75
Thomas
And when the answer to that question maybe unconsciously is a a no, maybe I don’t matter, then the world doesn’t feel so safe anymore, right? Which then create these adaptive behaviors we talked a lot about in in the other podcast before. But Michael, where are we going today? I’m excited because we’re showing off and we are like open what we’re going to focus on in this podcast.

22:33.63
Michael Preston
Yeah, so so one of the questions that has been rumbling around is, for couples that find it difficult to get connected, right? And that’s kind of what we’re naming here, right? Maybe it’s the life, life’s busyness, life’s craziness, life’s ups and downs. And so often as, as the, you mentioned that couple that came in and just said, we lost, we lost each other some somewhere along the way. We don’t even know when it happened, right? But life gets really busy. Life gets really. Incumbersome. And so often I’ve heard couples come in in that same place, right? They just said, there’s all these things.

23:14.36
Michael Preston
And then what what is it that keeps couples from being able to stop and say, what is it that I need? what do like there’s ah There’s this expression of our needs to our partner that becomes a really delicate dance, right?

23:31.03
Thomas
yes

23:32.43
Michael Preston
And so we wanna talk a little bit, just kind of launch off there, right? Is is why do couples fail to express their needs in a clear way to their partner.

23:47.52
Thomas
Yeah, that’s such a good question. And, you know, I think that’s there’s an external factor and an internal factor, right? Which there always is. And of course they impact each other.

23:59.06
Thomas
So there’s the external that we discussed a bit, which is that life gets really busy. And when we are so busy, we don’t have time to sit and even check in or even notice what is it that I need, less alone communicated, right?

24:03.76
Michael Preston
yeah

24:12.85
Thomas
So that maybe is the external pressure that might be present right at at any given time. And then I think there’s the internal model of the world, which is how I anticipate, based on experiences I had, that the world is going to respond to me right when I express my needs.

24:32.58
Thomas
And we obviously talked a bit about attachment styles already, so I’m not going to go through all that stuff again, go back to the older podcasts if you want to hear a bit more about that. But again, it’s these models that have been created, meaning perhaps when if I were to say, hey, I could really need a cuddle tonight and just sit down.

24:50.83
Thomas
We know that maybe sound very easy and simple to express, and it is from a purely logical perspective. There’s nothing complex in saying this, but from an emotional perspective, if my model of the world were that when I said that I would get a hostile response, maybe I would be ridiculed, maybe I would just be ignored, whatever it was.

25:07.44
Michael Preston
All right.

25:10.82
Thomas
So I would anticipate this tense feeling of rejection in my God, right? And this is just an example. People’s responses are different. But then if that model of the world became that, if I were to say that I have these needs, I’m going to be ridiculed, I’m going to be rejected, whatever it might be, then suddenly now it becomes very, very difficult to express that needs, right?

25:28.37
Michael Preston
Mm hmm.

25:33.62
Michael Preston
Right.

25:33.84
Thomas
And that’s where the model that we internal model that we we frame of the world can become a block to expressing what logically might sound very, very simple, you know, this is my need and this is what I have.

25:46.33
Michael Preston
Sorry.

25:46.77
Thomas
That actually that becomes really really hard cause now it exposes me to a risk it exposes me to danger in my internal model it doesn’t mean the danger is actually in the external world but my internal model tells me there is a risk of being rejected it could be abandoned it could be belittled.

26:04.78
Thomas
ashamed, whatever it might be, there’s suddenly a risk associated. And now what I then do instead is I withhold that need and then it comes out in a different way.

26:15.30
Thomas
Maybe I start becoming irritated. Maybe I just start disengaging because I don’t want to feel this sense of feeling rejected all the time, right?

26:22.18
Michael Preston
right

26:22.85
Thomas
So I just stop initiating physical contact. And over time, both partners start getting really dissatisfied, right? And the needs are not being spoken. So that’s like a short answer for me, but I want to hear from you as well, right?

26:36.47
Thomas
So so it’s a fascinating topic.

26:36.75
Michael Preston
Yeah, it is it is and it’s interesting to even kind of just hear your your words um I smiled a bit when you said you know turn to your partner and saying I need a cuddle, you know, because in in American

26:53.15
Michael Preston
growing up in America, the word the word cuddle is really just left to children.

26:59.41
Thomas
Yes.

26:59.99
Michael Preston
ah So it’s a very childlike way of being, right?

27:02.98
Thomas
Yeah.

27:03.43
Michael Preston
And so it’s in it’s an interesting as I hear it in Europe and and in England as like a real positive adult to adult cuddles, right?

27:13.31
Thomas
yeah

27:14.07
Michael Preston
And it’s not used like that very often. And so it makes me smile when I hear it because it’s such an intimate and sweet expression between ah between two people that care for each other.

27:25.66
Michael Preston
um So I just smile at that. It’s just a difference when in the words there. um But you know, as I think about this question, I think it’s really important to kind of take a second and define what we mean when we say need, because again, again, what got me kind of spinning in this American mindset of mine is our needs are food, shelter, water, right? That’s it. If you’ve got food, shelter and water, what ah what else do you need?

27:58.73
Michael Preston
Right. And so thinking about even our last episode where we talked about the difference in language around using attention seeking behavior for kids. Right.

28:07.89
Thomas
Yes.

28:08.06
Michael Preston
In this negative connotation.

28:10.67
Thomas
Yes.

28:10.65
Michael Preston
And so we’re already saying attention is not a need.

28:14.13
Thomas
Yes.

28:14.39
Michael Preston
Right. And we’re, we’re drilling that into the minds of young people. Right. If you have food, shelter, water, you can’t ask for anything. Otherwise you’re being selfish.

28:27.13
Michael Preston
right And so we have this way of being that says anything beyond the basics is you’re you’re being extra, you’re being selfish, you are you know essentially bad.

28:44.37
Thomas
Yes.

28:46.23
Michael Preston
right And then we have the other thing, which is to ask for something.

28:57.36
Michael Preston
flies in the face of a ever increasingly individualistic cultural narrative, right?

29:07.85
Thomas
Yes. So spot on.

29:10.91
Michael Preston
Cause that becomes a real problematics. We’ve got two really big things I hear in that word need that begin to make all of my, uh, early learning,

29:26.50
Michael Preston
Models start to cringe and and start to get a little prickly right I could feel it on the inside like oh, what do you mean? What do you mean? I need something. I’m good. I’m good on my own I pulled myself up by my bootstraps right like that all of that machismo Americana I did this and the reality I didn’t I didn’t right I didn’t I didn’t get here on my own, but we are you know made to think that we do in some way do this all on our own but if you look back you know you’ve got your teachers you’ve got your people you’ve got all these people around you hopefully that are a part of that journey but I think those are those are those are really important parts why we why we don’t ask for what we need is when we don’t recognize we have needs right we don’t yes yes that’s the thing

30:08.63
Thomas
Yes. And that they’re valid, right? That they’re like, cause that’s what you’re really saying that we might not recognize them. And if we do recognize them, we don’t feel that they are valid needs, right?

30:19.11
Michael Preston
yeah If you if you asked ten men in your life right and n ten women If you ask them is touch a need Do you think more people would say Yes touch physical touch is a need or would that be considered extra?

30:19.80
Thomas
We haven’t.

30:23.13
Thomas
Yes.

30:44.89
Thomas
You know, it’s a really good question because there might be ah a difference also in gender response, right? But I think we should do ah do this with our audience actually.

30:49.76
Michael Preston
I think it would be.

30:52.61
Thomas
So you guys tell us, you you you you post in the comments and let us know whether you would see that as a need.

30:53.10
Michael Preston
Yeah. Yeah, you tell us.

30:59.54
Thomas
And I’ll be interested also to see if there’s a difference in the way that men or women might respond to this.

31:03.99
Michael Preston
Yeah. yeah prior Prior to us saying this, like before you ever listened to this episode, if if you were asked that question, is touch a need?

31:14.43
Thomas
Yes.

31:15.37
Michael Preston
like What would you say? Put the honest answer in the comments below. Because from my experience, it tells me that no, people wouldn’t say touch.

31:25.69
Michael Preston
And most men would say touch. Touch is not a need.

31:28.56
Thomas
Yes.

31:29.31
Michael Preston
I and don’t need someone to touch me.

31:29.52
Thomas
and

31:32.59
Thomas
Yes. um I’m really curious actually what people would say. Obviously, if you ask me, I would say, yes, absolutely. Cause for me, it come back to this emotional compass. I think we mentioned in a few podcasts to go, which is that all needs and all these signals are just a way to get us back on the right track, get us back in balance.

31:49.60
Michael Preston
Right.

31:50.45
Thomas
Right.

31:51.12
Michael Preston
That’s right.

31:51.40
Thomas
Like we did the hot cold or this is telling us to put clothes on a takeoff in the same way.

31:54.10
Michael Preston
Right.

31:56.21
Thomas
Touch is just telling me that this is what the body needs to get back in balance, right?

32:00.28
Michael Preston
right Yeah.

32:01.93
Thomas
Maybe it needs a bit of oxytocin that we can get through touch. Whatever it is, it’s telling me what I need to be in a balanced place. So I think therefore I see them all as valid needs, but you’re right. That might be not be a common attitude.

32:13.98
Thomas
And you mentioned something and and interesting here again also about Just the the culture that we obviously have lived in and grown up in, which is more a westernized culture, right? You’re obviously from the US and again, we have obviously been impacted a lot by US culture.

32:27.99
Thomas
We have all your movies and dadada we’re importing a lot of it.

32:30.01
Michael Preston
right.

32:31.19
Thomas
So we also grown up here in this very individualistic society, right? And what’s really fascinating, so my mom was a professor at the Copenhagen Business School and also a study in sociology, right?

32:44.04
Thomas
And this idea that the more lonely and fractured we feel, the more we spend.

32:46.89
Michael Preston
the

32:49.84
Thomas
meaning And again, this is not a political podcast, but the point is just that we actually consume more.

32:50.72
Michael Preston
oh yeah.

32:55.16
Michael Preston
Yeah.

32:55.33
Thomas
Right. So for my capitalistic system, this idea that we are individual, I need some, it’s great because when you feel dissatisfied to feel more alone, you have a dopamine drop and you need to go spend more to get that hit.

32:58.74
Michael Preston
Oh, yeah. Yeah.

33:07.39
Michael Preston
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

33:07.96
Thomas
Right. So when we feel more connected, we actually purchase less.

33:09.56
Michael Preston
That makes a lot of sense.

33:13.24
Thomas
So it’s not good for capitalism when we feel really connected and feel good. And I noticed this myself. I remember when I ran a business. What’s this, 15 years ago, right? And I often felt quite disconnected. It was my business. And again, I felt there a bit on my own at the top, that dada not that connected to the people. I came home and would just do my thing. And I would always go into my Amazon basket and fill it up. But then one day I stopped.

33:40.51
Thomas
And I say, why am I buying all this stuff that I don’t actually need? And and you know what? I realized the pattern. I only went on Amazon to fill up my basket when I felt isolated, when I hadn’t had time with my partner or with my friends.

33:54.79
Michael Preston
um

33:55.94
Thomas
That’s when I would do it. And I realized every time I had quality time with her or with with friends,

33:57.41
Michael Preston
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

34:02.33
Thomas
I had no need.

34:02.44
Michael Preston
Doesn’t look like it.

34:03.21
Thomas
I would never go on Amazon and fill up my basket.

34:05.10
Michael Preston
Yeah, yeah.

34:06.49
Thomas
And you’re right, it comes back to this. We’re told that, oh, you should be individual, right? And we should be able to cope with everything on our own. And I shouldn’t have these needs. They might not be perceived as valid, right?

34:18.92
Thomas
Even though, of course, all needs are valid. They’re literally this incredible organism’s way of just communicating how can you stay in balance?

34:24.92
Michael Preston
right

34:28.29
Thomas
How can you continue to be nurtured not just logical which you say is obviously the food water shelter right but also there’s emotional needs right there’s physical needs which also are absolutely critical for this body to stay in good function.

34:39.67
Michael Preston
right

34:43.81
Michael Preston
Yep, absolutely. Well, and you know, I, it’s, it’s funny because you’re, you know, what you’re saying about, it’s not good for capitalism for us to be well connected, right?

34:57.01
Thomas
Yes.

34:57.36
Michael Preston
It’s not. because we will buy more. And i that’s such an interesting additive, especially to the the narrative of American culture.

35:10.67
Thomas
Yes.

35:10.82
Michael Preston
and and and and it’s And it’s bleeding effect, it’s bleeding over effect into other countries of watching how we do this, how we, you know, it’s funny, like I go and fill my Amazon cart and maybe we go, oh, right, the cart you can’t fill.

35:24.50
Thomas
Yes.

35:24.99
Michael Preston
Right?

35:25.52
Thomas
Yes.

35:25.97
Michael Preston
It’s a bottomless cart.

35:27.12
Thomas
Yes.

35:27.68
Michael Preston
It’s not like going to the grocery store and like you literally have a cart and you’re like, you know what, that’s getting a little full and maybe, maybe, maybe not dividing.

35:31.54
Thomas
a

35:33.19
Michael Preston
It’s a bottomless cart, right? And that’s, and that’s what, that’s what this is. It’s a, it’s when we are, what what we’re naming here is when we don’t know those needs, we start reaching to other things to try to fill them.

35:44.85
Thomas
Yes.

35:45.54
Michael Preston
and And Amazon is one way we all do that. And it’s a bottomless, right?

35:49.78
Thomas
Yes.

35:50.01
Michael Preston
it’s There’s no way to fill that part of us. And and as we’re talking about this, it’s just you know it’s not lost on me that how are we ever going to be able to, I’m gonna come back to that question, why don’t we tell our needs?

36:02.69
Thomas
Yes.

36:03.00
Michael Preston
But then the question is, how are we going to be able to speak our needs when we don’t even know we have them?

36:09.44
Thomas
yes

36:10.12
Michael Preston
like And going back to the touch thing, I wanna make it really clear. right What I mean is non-sexual touch. like Physical non-sexual touch. Because the one thing I do believe ah that men have been offered is sex is a need. right But they’ve also been told to meet all their other needs through sex.

36:43.29
Thomas
Yes.

36:43.88
Michael Preston
Right? So what what we would say is that men have sexualized the culture of men as just these, you know, caveman like sex beings. The cultural narrative around men has taught them to sexualize non-sexual needs.

36:59.76
Thomas
Yes.

37:00.23
Michael Preston
And this is something I have to work with really, really explicitly in my work with couples, because if men get a promotion, they want to celebrate with sex.

37:12.47
Thomas
Yes.

37:13.10
Michael Preston
And if they lose a job, they want comforting, but they they want you to comfort them through sex.

37:17.21
Thomas
Yes.

37:17.31
Michael Preston
Like it doesn’t matter if I’m happy or sad, right? We can manage that through a sexual encounter.

37:22.34
Thomas
Yes. yes

37:24.83
Michael Preston
And that’s kind of what we’re given as a tool to manage all of our needs. And so when you have a, you know, and a lot of couples come in and the man just goes like, Oh, he’s just like, he’s just so, he just only wants sex all the time.

37:37.44
Michael Preston
It’s like, well, he’s got a lot of needs that he doesn’t know about, but he’s been given one tool.

37:40.14
Thomas
yes and Yes, I really like that. And you know, that again brings us back to this culture where it’s often not acceptable for most men at least to ask or get touch, right?

37:54.24
Thomas
And we learn that quite early, which again brings us back to this that actually sex sex is often for many men, the only place

37:54.92
Michael Preston
Yeah.

37:57.70
Michael Preston
Oh, man.

38:04.13
Thomas
they get physical touch, right?

38:04.92
Michael Preston
That’s right.

38:06.17
Thomas
So no wonder that there might be an obsession about it, right?

38:06.21
Michael Preston
That’s right.

38:09.29
Thomas
Cause that’s the only place.

38:10.82
Michael Preston
Only place.

38:11.38
Thomas
And you know, the fascinating thing for me, and this is many years ago, but I remember when I decided to start hogging my male friends instead of, you know, shaking hands or whatever men tend to do, Hey bro, whatever they’re doing, right?

38:20.47
Michael Preston
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

38:24.05
Thomas
To actually give them a proper hug.

38:25.75
Michael Preston
Yeah.

38:26.01
Thomas
And then a few of my friends got comfortable with it. And sometimes you would actually just hold each other.

38:29.64
Michael Preston
Amen.

38:30.50
Thomas
For like a proper 30 second hog, right? And get all those good chemicals in the brain, right? And just breathe. You can feel the breath. And so many of us would feel so awkward because we grown up with men don’t do that.

38:42.95
Thomas
And what that means about us if we do it, right?

38:43.56
Michael Preston
That’s right.

38:45.82
Thomas
Etc, etc. But an interesting fact was it actually changed also how it related to sexuality because suddenly there was a totally different calm in my body around this and it wasn’t such an urgency because I could now get touched from many different places and suddenly the body felt more calm, right?

38:57.35
Michael Preston
yeah

39:03.17
Michael Preston
right

39:05.67
Thomas
um So it’s just very fascinating but I think what you’re saying is, which is is really important to look at, It’s so hard for many of us to even sense what are these needs even in the first place.

39:16.98
Michael Preston
and

39:17.78
Thomas
I obviously talked about if we know what they are.

39:26.50
Michael Preston
That’s right.

00:02.31
Michael Preston
We were you you were, you were saying something about,

00:04.05
Thomas
We were talking about the fact that there’s two parts to this about needs. There’s what I mentioned a bit earlier that we might know our need, but it’s really hard to express because the model we have for the world is that it’s not safe to express them. And then you mentioned the other part, which is really important, is that often we don’t even know what those needs are, right?

00:26.49
Michael Preston
it’s the unconscious of it, right? And you were you were naming a minute ago how,

00:33.97
Michael Preston
And I was really appreciating the way that you were saying, when we don’t have another form of touch besides sex, it becomes well it becomes so important.

00:45.31
Thomas
yeah Yes.

00:45.58
Michael Preston
i It becomes so important. So when you take that away, it goes, that’s that’s all of my physical touch. right so So there’s many men who walk around this way. and And I know we talk a lot about men on this podcast, but that’s often because that’s the perspective that we have.

00:58.78
Michael Preston
And so we will we won want to, as this podcast continues to go, we’ll we’ll get some will be bringing in some females so we have more female perspective at times and non-binary guests to come in and chat about about that perspective as well.

01:12.98
Thomas
Yes.

01:16.85
Michael Preston
But just there’s something I do like about this about our this focus, though, is because there’s not very many men out there talking about couples work.

01:27.31
Michael Preston
and how to help couples.

01:27.41
Thomas
Yeah.

01:28.67
Michael Preston
So there’s not a lot of male perspective out there that’s that’s um that’s coming from this this this realm of we have we have a lot of needs that we don’t know.

01:39.86
Michael Preston
And so yeah i I wanted to name that because anyone listening is going, these guys talk about men and there and like how how compassionate they are towards men, but it’s the women that have to put up with them.

01:50.41
Michael Preston
And we get that. I don’t don’t want to shy away from the fact that we totally understand there’s women

01:52.89
Thomas
Yeah.

01:57.35
Michael Preston
and out there that are going, wait a minute, but they’re assholes. And maybe I get it. I get it. No, that’s not lost on us. But what we also want to do is build into that kind of awareness for men and for their partners, right? That when you take away sex and a man doesn’t have an awareness of their other needs, then you’ve taken away the one tool they have to meet those needs. And so it does become really important, but that is on on men to know and to learn their other needs, right?

02:31.25
Thomas
Yes.

02:31.25
Michael Preston
It is on them to do that.

02:32.91
Thomas
Yes. And I think even when we obviously are talking about this topic of sex is that for a lot of men, it also is a stress release, right? It becomes a way they engage with stress because they might not have other coping strategies really of how they know how to engage when they’re very stressed. Right. ah And often sex then become this release where they try and regulate their mood or their stress response through that. Right. um And again, this is not to say there’s anything wrong with sex at all. Of course, I know it can be a wonderful, beautiful part of of any relationship.

03:03.05
Michael Preston
And it can be a wonderful stress reliever.

03:03.18
Thomas
but it Yes, and it can be that too.

03:06.37
Michael Preston
And a stress reliever.

03:08.43
Thomas
Absolutely, absolutely. And then it’s also to to again then look at, like you said, what are those other needs that might also be there, right?

03:15.32
Michael Preston
That’s right.

03:17.10
Thomas
Because if we don’t listen to them, that yeah, because otherwise there’s something they keep lying there that is not being met, right?

03:17.65
Michael Preston
So let me ask you a question.

03:22.90
Michael Preston
Yeah. Right.

03:24.25
Thomas
And it might be covered up, but it’s not being met. And in that, it’s also part of what we say you know in this word, relating. And often we don’t even talk what does relating mean. Yes, it’s partly you share experiences together, you share goals together, et cetera. But it’s also understanding your partner’s internal world. And it’s limited how much intimacy we can have if we don’t understand our partner’s internal world. right We might have fun experiences, we might laugh, but how much intimacy can we really have? And we can only have that if we two people learn what their internal world are, right? And a big part of that is what are these other needs that I have and how am I able to communicate that so we can at least hear each other a bit more and no more parts of this person I’m with, right?

04:10.91
Michael Preston
Absolutely. So let me ask you a question, Thomas. How would you say, anyone,

04:19.63
Thomas
Yes. Love the singing in the background, man.

04:21.88
Michael Preston
be it is Christmas break still. So the kids are home.

04:26.81
Thomas
I love it. I love it.

04:28.19
Michael Preston
And, and that’s just, that’s just the reality of working from home.

04:31.47
Thomas
I just realized.

04:32.81
Michael Preston
Right. Uh, but you probably won’t even be able to hear them in the show.

04:37.35
Thomas
Absolutely cute though.

04:38.59
Michael Preston
Yeah. So how would you say someone who goes, you know, you know, they’re listening in, they’re going, you know, I don’t really, I don’t really know what these guys are talking about. Right. I don’t really know. Like when you say needs, how would you help someone listening right now?

04:58.18
Thomas
Yes, that’s a really good question. And it obviously really depends on how aware people are of what going on, right? So I think a really simple way is that most people are able to say, you know, all my mood feels different today.

05:13.73
Michael Preston
Mm hmm.

05:13.94
Thomas
I feel a bit different, right? Or something feels off or I feel a little bit tense or I feel more tired or I have more headaches or whatever it might be.

05:26.15
Thomas
All these things that deviate slightly is a signal to readjust and that some need is not being met. Yeah, all of them literally and this is what I find so fascinating about this human organism is it’s literally wired to constantly send us a feedback loop.

05:44.68
Thomas
all the time. So whenever something starts feeling off, it’s because something has been negated. If you start feeling disconnected in your relationship, it’s because there’s some needs that are not being expressed. yeah Something is coming out of balance. If you start feeling excessively tired,

06:01.25
Thomas
Slow down and figure out, wait, something is going on here. That’s why suddenly, so first is to spot, you know, in EFT, we tend to have, what is the queue? What is the trigger? That’s being able to know when do ah is something happening being set off, right? That’s sending us off balance. If we don’t know what that is, it’s hard to avoid it, right? And it’s the same here. If we don’t even know how to listen to the queue that’s telling us,

06:24.64
Michael Preston
Right.

06:25.08
Thomas
that something is out and there’s needs not being met, then that’s very hard. So I think the first part is to learn to notice these cues and they tend to be something where you feel out of balance.

06:28.85
Michael Preston
Hmm.

06:35.98
Thomas
It doesn’t feel very good. Maybe you feel more angry. Maybe you feel more tired. Maybe you’re starting to get depressed. Maybe you feel more anxious than you normally do. Whatever it is, start noticing what is deviating and that’s telling you something is starting to drift.

06:50.75
Thomas
And behind that will always be needs, whether it’s need for comfort, reassurance, more sleep. um Whatever it is, there is a need there that’s not being met in that moment, right?

07:02.97
Michael Preston
I like it. I like it. but It’s like you were saying in the other episode, we know we’re hungry because our body tells us. And we’re used to paying attention to the need for food.

07:13.65
Thomas
Yes.

07:14.47
Michael Preston
right And we can grow in our awareness of what signal our body is giving us, if we know almost like we know that if we begin to learn the frequency to tune into it.

07:29.54
Thomas
Yes.

07:30.10
Michael Preston
right

07:30.92
Thomas
Yes.

07:31.19
Michael Preston
So I think about, we’ve named one today, which is touch.

07:34.77
Thomas
Yes.

07:35.14
Michael Preston
yeah That’s a real need, right? And and there’s there’s really incredible research around the the physical benefits of being touched. Our body needs that.

07:47.35
Thomas
Yes.

07:47.64
Michael Preston
um Our body needs, like we need to be heard.

07:48.87
Thomas
Yes. yes

07:52.47
Michael Preston
Like we need to be heard, have someone tune in and listen to us. It helps regulate our our emotions. It helps us feel our feet on the ground. It helps us feel less anxious.

08:06.11
Michael Preston
right So a need that you may not be paying attention to might be the need of being heard. Just heard. Listen to.

08:12.81
Thomas
Yes.

08:13.72
Michael Preston
And a need the the need of praise.

08:19.18
Thomas
yeah Yes.

08:19.46
Michael Preston
And that one’s really hard for a lot of people to swallow. The need of being seen and acknowledged Right?

08:31.48
Michael Preston
And I think about how often I heard the phrase growing up, not like, when I said grow, I just mean everywhere, right?

08:39.62
Thomas
Yes.

08:41.12
Michael Preston
Schools, shows, coaches, um and from everywhere imaginable. The phrase I heard growing up was, what do you want? An attaboy?

08:50.66
Thomas
Yeah.

08:51.58
Michael Preston
Right? Are you familiar with that phrase?

08:53.26
Thomas
I haven’t heard that particular phase, but I think it’s kind of implied in what you’re mentioning and talking about, yeah.

08:54.48
Michael Preston
Okay.

08:57.16
Michael Preston
Yeah. What do you want? An attaboy?

09:03.05
Michael Preston
Or people will say, well what am I supposed to thank you for doing your job? Right. And so you hear that if you are wanting someone to acknowledge you, then something must be wrong with you.

09:16.73
Thomas
yeah

09:17.33
Michael Preston
Right. And I was thinking, you know, that every, every day

09:27.36
Michael Preston
My wife and I, in some way, acknowledge one another’s efforts.

09:38.53
Michael Preston
ah if If it’s a slow day, it would be five times a day.

09:42.33
Thomas
Yes.

09:43.03
Michael Preston
If it’s a slow day, right? if it’s ah And it’s something simple. We’re talking about the simplest thing. If you’re listening now and going, how can we start doing this, right? Well, let’s pay attention to what your partner is doing. Because so often we miss out because we’re so focused on what they didn’t do.

09:52.22
Thomas
Yeah.

09:56.54
Thomas
Yes.

09:57.13
Michael Preston
But even something simple, like I get up and I’ll make the coffee, right? And my wife will come down and she’ll have a cup of coffee and she’ll go, oh, thank you so much. And I really, it was a great cup of coffee.

10:09.34
Thomas
Yeah.

10:09.39
Michael Preston
And see.

10:10.18
Thomas
And you know what, this is, yes, and this is really part of what we talked about earlier, the slow drifting apart, right? When this is missed because it’s such a core need to know that you’re valued and appreciated for the things that you do every day.

10:26.24
Thomas
And that can be coming home and saying, hey, you’re such an amazing mother.

10:30.00
Michael Preston
Yeah.

10:30.16
Thomas
You know, the way you just engaged there and were able to do that, that’s like amazing. Or, you know, thank you for all these things you do for me. and often we forget that and over time that becomes a slow drifting right we forget all these little mini moments because really you know relationships long-term relationships are not about these huge gestures we often think oh how big is your wedding gonna be right oh how many people came and we think that somehow define the relationship exactly but

10:42.05
Michael Preston
That’s right. That’s right. That’s what Hollywood teaches us, right?

10:59.98
Michael Preston
like everybody’s heart’s warming moments and it’s like, yeah.

11:02.40
Thomas
Yes. And then it will last forever. But the truth is, it’s about these mini moments, right? That keeps the glue going. That’s like what keeps it sticking, right? Instead of that slow drifting. So I think it’s it’s so important what you’re saying. And you know, I even thought before, you know, when I was mentioning about how it can be really difficult to express our needs but i also for when you say how can we notice it i can give an example of this even though it may be a bit of an old example but it’s like you know i know that it’s very difficult for me to remember names right ah sometimes if i have to meet like a new friend of my partner then i can get a little stressed because i’m like oh what if i forget their name right and that could feel really awkward.

11:36.27
Michael Preston
Yeah.

11:46.44
Thomas
But now a lot of times people might not have engaged with that, but I noticed because I’m so used to checking in that, oh, I felt a bit of tension. I know that this deviate from my normal set point. Normally I don’t feel tension in my stomach. I had a bit of tension, right? And I know, oh, that’s a signal. Then I ran to pee twice to the toilet. I know, oh, that means I’m a bit nervous.

12:07.92
Thomas
because Because then I always empty my bladder more, which is normal when we have a fight a flight response, right?

12:13.33
Michael Preston
That’s right.

12:13.47
Thomas
So because I learned what the signals are when I’m out of balance, I picked up, oh, I guess, and normally I wouldn’t have known because it wasn’t like I had panic attack or anything, but it was a low level stress, right?

12:25.41
Thomas
But I picked up the signals because I trained myself to notice these cues.

12:25.40
Michael Preston
right

12:29.60
Thomas
And then I said, oh, okay, what is it really that I need to now feel calm? Because then it’s likely going to go better if I feel calm. And I thought, you know what, it would be really calm me down if my partner introduced me because then she’ll tell me their name again, yeah, on the spot so I don’t forget. And then I could just come and say, because, you know, I have a model that normally people will respond in a kind way to my needs, I could say, hey, maybe this would be really helpful for me.

12:56.08
Thomas
when we meet your friend i know you told me their name and talked about them loads but it’s a new person for me could you just introduce me and say their name and she’ll be like yeah of course no problem and then are my stomach calm down.

13:08.22
Thomas
So i had listened to what the queue was right i listen to what the need was and when i then got the need then the system reset basically right in the stress was so that’s just a small tiny example.

13:18.49
Michael Preston
I think it’s a great example because I think about like what people have probably just been through and like we’ll go through again is the office party where they go with their partner, with their spouse, with you know whoever they’re with to the office party where one person is going to know everybody and then the other one is going to feel like the odd person out, right?

13:46.07
Thomas
Yeah.

13:47.26
Michael Preston
And so there’s this nervousness and oftentimes This can create the the like the silent treatment going home from the office party. What’s what’s your problem?

13:58.37
Michael Preston
Why are you so upset? What’s wrong with you tonight? right And often it’s, I felt anxious and out of place and then you got distracted with your coworkers and then I found myself alone and I was just sitting over at the bar drinking.

14:06.95
Thomas
Yes.

14:14.69
Michael Preston
Thinking about all these people talking to you and then I got thinking about how bald my hair is getting and how your co-worker is 10 years younger than me and he’s got a full head of hair right and there you were laughing with him and suddenly I’m mad at you and you and your co-worker and you have this great relationship and here I am and I’m forgettable when you push me to the side Yeah

14:33.44
Thomas
Yes. Yes. And then the argument start, right? Because then the person will defend himself and say, no, he’s just my boss.

14:40.47
Michael Preston
but the

14:41.82
Thomas
What do you expect me to not talk to him? And they are completely missing because you’re right.

14:45.66
Michael Preston
No.

14:46.72
Thomas
The needs was not expressed, right? The need was that, Hey, I felt really alone and I really needed your support.

14:53.23
Michael Preston
That’s right.

14:53.32
Thomas
And so I didn’t feel alone, right?

14:55.73
Michael Preston
And the need of going into that moment with a game plan, right?

14:58.40
Thomas
Yes, exactly. That I needed your support. Can you introduce me to some people? But that was never expressed, right? And now, yeah yes.

15:05.93
Michael Preston
Can you tell me? can you you know Can you make sure, right? Can you look over and notice me at time to time?

15:14.03
Thomas
Yes.

15:14.58
Michael Preston
right can I know it’s really easy in these settings to just get wrapped up in the people you know.

15:21.11
Thomas
Yes.

15:21.56
Michael Preston
Can you not forget me?

15:22.97
Thomas
Yes. And this brings us to something interesting when you said that, because we talked about how you can identify your needs, right? What the blocks are to identify and express it, but here then comes the next part, right? So let’s say we can identify that something is off. We can identify the need, but then comes to, oh, but a lot of people are going to sit and say, yeah, but I couldn’t see myself saying, I need your help in this way. Cause that feels really vulnerable and odd and strange, right?

15:51.93
Michael Preston
And we’re gonna get some people that would go, you know it’s not my job to babysit my partner and those things.

15:56.78
Thomas
Yes.

15:57.30
Michael Preston
And and I get that, I do. And and yet i’ve I’ve come to also see and learn that people in committed long-term loving relationships want their partner to have a good time, want their partner to be comfortable.

16:09.11
Thomas
Yes. yes

16:11.10
Michael Preston
So there becomes this difficult space here, but that when we can’t even express it. One, again, because the first step is it’s out of our awareness. We don’t even, like all we, like what ends up getting focused on is that my partner is talking to somebody, that my partner is ignoring me, right?

16:28.10
Thomas
Yes.

16:29.74
Michael Preston
It’s all about what the partner isn’t doing because we’re because our own need is out of our awareness, our own anxiousness, the feeling of loneliness,

16:32.00
Thomas
Yes.

16:40.39
Thomas
Yes.

16:41.16
Michael Preston
We don’t have words for those. We don’t, those don’t even, what we only feel is anger that my partner’s ignoring me.

16:42.32
Thomas
yeah Yes.

16:47.80
Michael Preston
So it has nothing to do with being lonely.

16:47.96
Thomas
and

16:49.17
Michael Preston
It has nothing to do with being anxious, right? That’s, oh, no, no, no. It’s all to do because my partner left me alone, right?

16:54.55
Thomas
yeah

16:54.58
Michael Preston
And that’s how the blame game gets started.

16:56.46
Thomas
Yes, and also even in like you said here, some people might listen to this and say, hey, it’s not my job. and and But often that need is also not expressed. It just becomes a shutdown instead of the other person’s need, right?

17:07.89
Thomas
And then there’s this, now we feel disconnected because our internal realities have not been fully expressed and they’ve both been kind of rejected, right?

17:10.32
Michael Preston
yet

17:15.13
Thomas
Now we are alone with this Instead of even in that place, there’s a place to say, hey, listen, my need is I need your support to get in contact. The other one say, hey, my need is that I can feel free and roam around and we can say, okay, how can we find something that works for both of us?

17:30.30
Thomas
Because remember, we are ah together, right? So if you want a happy relationship, you do have to some extent caring about the other persons, right?

17:37.63
Michael Preston
and

17:38.47
Thomas
So there’s an, okay, maybe you could introduce me to a few people and then you go off and do your own thing. That’s fine. And then we find a way where we can both get some of these needs met, right? And show a care for each other.

17:49.79
Michael Preston
And think about it, right? this that that That response of it’s not my job to babysit you, right?

17:54.57
Thomas
yeah Yes.

17:55.33
Michael Preston
is Is what they’re really saying is, I can’t know your needs. ah without you expressing them.

18:01.26
Thomas
Yes. Yes.

18:01.83
Michael Preston
I can’t help you with that. But but what you’re asking me to do is predict your needs, two to do all the needs work for you.

18:09.31
Thomas
Yes.

18:09.85
Michael Preston
That’s usually the angry response they get in defense of self when the blame is, you left me alone. right But when you can say, I need you to help me find people to talk to, and and from time to time check in to make sure I’m doing okay, and if I’m not doing okay,

18:15.68
Thomas
Yes.

18:28.26
Thomas
Yes.

18:28.91
Michael Preston
I need to be able to come to you, and even if I just put my hand on your shoulder to know let you know I’m there, that’s my signal to you saying, I’m getting a bit lonely, and you can turn and include me in the conversation you’re having.

18:41.31
Michael Preston
but like I will come find you as well, not just you have to find me.

18:41.41
Thomas
yeah Yes.

18:46.36
Michael Preston
But that becomes really difficult, because what people often do get lost in is the argument afterwards that their partner just left them, just abandoned them.

18:51.95
Thomas
Yes.

18:56.07
Michael Preston
right because

18:56.81
Thomas
That’s right.

18:57.53
Michael Preston
Because recognizing and sharing those needs have become so buried beneath the arguments they normally get in, the cul the narrative they’re given growing up about what happens if I express my needs, or the cultural narrative about what it means to express needs.

19:04.22
Thomas
Yes.

19:14.19
Michael Preston
All those things are burying our ability to know in ourself, acknowledge, and share them with our partner.

19:16.31
Thomas
Yes. Yes.

19:25.75
Thomas
yes And that’s where the vulnerability piece comes in, right? Because the fact is there is no way to have a close intimate relationship without an element of vulnerability.

19:36.97
Michael Preston
That’s right.

19:37.54
Thomas
Because there is a risk, right?

19:39.13
Michael Preston
yeah

19:39.61
Thomas
So if we are so protective to risk, then we also can’t have intimacy and that might be a choice some people say that’s how and that’s totally okay right but it’s just for people who maybe say hey i wanna feel more intimacy then there will be an element of risk it’s unavoidable right it cannot be skipped so.

19:51.81
Michael Preston
Yeah.

19:57.14
Michael Preston
yes

19:58.02
Thomas
So, you know, that’s part of, yes, now I can reckon, now I know what the need is. And now I might still feel it’s a bit risky to say, you know, and, and, you know, again, we talked about this, we’re in, should be individuals, we, are duada we shouldn’t need other people.

20:11.58
Thomas
So there’s always an expression in this, right?

20:13.88
Michael Preston
Yeah.

20:14.21
Thomas
i I do need you, right?

20:15.86
Michael Preston
That’s right.

20:16.25
Thomas
When you say, Hey, can you introduce me to a few people? Then that’s saying, I do need you. And that can feel very vulnerable, right? For a lot of people to do that.

20:24.80
Michael Preston
we We’re sitting here talking about needs and you know physical touch and and these things and expressing needs when the basic need that you just named is so prevalent, right which is I don’t need people. I don’t need anyone. People don’t even have that as a basic need. And yet even even that person but who would say, oh, I don’t i don’t need Anyone, even the withdrawer, right?

20:44.68
Michael Preston
The avoided partner would say, I don’t need anyone. Even they end up in usually long-term married relationships because yeah but not like theyre they that, but they don’t recognize it as a need.

20:48.35
Thomas
Yes. Yes.

20:55.85
Michael Preston
They would never acknowledge it as a need.

20:57.99
Thomas
Yes.

20:58.60
Michael Preston
So maybe that’s even a place to start. Can you acknowledge your need for another? Like real need.

21:02.58
Thomas
Yeah.

21:03.71
Michael Preston
Can we do that? Can you say, what would but would it be to say, I need this person? Even that is…

21:08.54
Thomas
And that, that alone is such an important message, right? This it’s okay. And it’s even human. It makes you human to need other people.

21:19.12
Michael Preston
All right, so that’s gonna bring us into like what people, the term that people often use is self-regulation. I don’t need anyone to self, to to regulate my emotions.

21:29.79
Michael Preston
And that comes into a lot of conflict with the work that we do, right?

21:32.82
Thomas
yeah Yes. Yes.

21:33.97
Michael Preston
Because we would go, we need people. We carry people in our bodies that help us regulate. We don’t need them to be right next to us.

21:40.28
Thomas
Yes.

21:41.02
Michael Preston
But we do need their loving, kind words in our heart to help us in moments of need.

21:47.61
Thomas
Yes. And you know what? I’m very passionate about this because this is what I studied first before any couples therapy, polyvagal theory, which is very much about, you know, self-regulation, co-regulation, et cetera, and how we navigate the different branches of the nervous system.

21:54.25
Michael Preston
yeah

22:01.61
Thomas
And the fascinating thing is that avoidant response is not really self-regulation. It’s often a shutdown response, which is actually different.

22:09.25
Michael Preston
That’s right.

22:10.85
Thomas
And we can only learn to self-regulate, which is calming ourself down through co-regulation. So we learn to still regulate through a model of having had co-regulation.

22:22.90
Michael Preston
that’s right

22:23.01
Thomas
And this is quite important, right? And the fact is we always and will always need the ability to for both. That never ends. And the only way you can not go into co-regulation is to have a shutdown response instead.

22:37.10
Thomas
Yeah?

22:37.11
Michael Preston
yep

22:37.65
Thomas
Where you simply can shut down and shut away whatever it is you don’t want to feel, right? um So therefore, again, if we want to get into a place where we’re able to relate to other people, have intimacy with other people, we need to both have the ability to self-regulate and co-regulate, right?

22:52.79
Michael Preston
That’s right.

22:55.72
Thomas
And what we tend to find in the different attachment styles is, and if we go a bit more to to the anxious pursuer, they tend to Mercy co-regulation so they tend to look for other people to help regulate them right in most instances right that would be what happened and that’s a model they have learned i need others to regulate and it’s very scary if these others don’t approve or leave me cuz i don’t have the co-regulation right.

23:21.50
Michael Preston
And then they get then they get called clingy.

23:24.32
Thomas
Yes so.

23:24.86
Michael Preston
And and these like that’s the negative slant off.

23:27.63
Thomas
That is a shameful term exactly where we try to shame that, right? But, and then we have the avoidant, which is very good at numbing often their own emotions, right?

23:38.38
Thomas
So they don’t necessarily, so you can say to some extent, they do self-regulate because they regulate it down. They push the brake of the nervous system called also vagal, right? They push the brake of the nervous system, but they often push it so much too much, right?

23:49.94
Michael Preston
That’s right.

23:51.03
Thomas
So it’s always having that right balance. um If you have full breakdown, you can’t go anywhere with the car, right? Even if you push the speeder, if you have too much speed, as we talked about, and so anxious, you’re going to crash.

23:56.97
Michael Preston
That’s right.

24:02.32
Thomas
It’s about the right amount, right?

24:04.23
Michael Preston
right.

24:04.56
Thomas
um so So they tend to very much rely on this, hey, I’ll do it myself. I can regulate. I don’t need other people. I prefer to be on my own when I’m stressed. right But in that, they also cut off the possibility of relating because these are the moments where we really can relate when we learn to count on another.

24:22.61
Thomas
right When we say, hey, it is safe and actually maybe other people do care about what it is, that i how I’m feeling, what’s happening internally.

24:23.60
Michael Preston
yeah

24:31.48
Thomas
right um And that comes back to when we said relating, part of that is sharing our internal world. So if we shut it down, then there’s no sharing happening and therefore there’s no relating happening anymore.

24:42.61
Thomas
right

24:42.78
Michael Preston
Yeah, I remember working with a particularly withdrawn individual Who anytime I came close to an experience with them I would say I just noticed you know, and we’re talking about this and You know, your eyes are darting up and your foot’s tapping a lot.

25:03.53
Michael Preston
What’s, what’s coming up for you right there? And every time they would say, I don’t know. I don’t know. And I was like, right. Right. This is the place you don’t know.

25:14.67
Michael Preston
Right. Where, where, you know, the partner would often get anxious. Right. Tell me, tell me what’s going on. Like, I want it. I want to know. And the partner’s really going, I don’t know.

25:24.66
Thomas
Yes.

25:25.30
Michael Preston
Right. And that was the strategy.

25:27.34
Thomas
Yes.

25:29.05
Michael Preston
right The strategy is just cut it off, shut it down, suppress it.

25:33.83
Thomas
Yes.

25:34.27
Michael Preston
Something is clearly happening in this person. right Their foot is going up and down. They’re kind of looking another direction. there’s All the body cues are saying something is turning inside of me.

25:44.43
Michael Preston
But when I ask them to look at it, they’re going to say, I don’t know. i And that’s a strategy to manage when we don’t know that people care about what’s happening inside of us.

26:00.82
Thomas
yes

26:01.46
Michael Preston
right And that’s so important because that’s that’s the big piece that people listening,

26:09.99
Michael Preston
I want to validate anyone, i and ki male, female, non-binary,

26:18.47
Michael Preston
Anyone who says when they start to have feeling and something gets distressing if they were to say, I don’t know what that is. I don’t have words. I want to say that makes a lot of sense because it’s likely that you don’t have a lot of experience of people showing up and saying what you’re going through deeply matters to me and I want to help you with that.

26:40.83
Thomas
Yes.

26:41.18
Michael Preston
When we don’t have that, then we have to take the needs and put them away. And so partners often aren’t just withholding, like they’re not like standing over there with all their needs. Like, I’m just not going to give these to you, right?

26:54.64
Michael Preston
It’s not malicious. It’s like, I don’t know what to give you.

26:59.76
Thomas
Yeah.

27:00.11
Michael Preston
I don’t even know what to ask for. I don’t even know if I’m aware I have a need. All I know is I want to go away.

27:07.23
Thomas
And that in itself, often for the other part, can become frustrating, right?

27:11.54
Michael Preston
So frustrating because cause it just

27:12.33
Thomas
but because

27:13.48
Michael Preston
They’re so aware of their needs.

27:14.97
Thomas
Yes.

27:15.35
Michael Preston
Hey! They’ll have all the word for their needs.

27:16.43
Thomas
Yes. And that’s it, right? And especially for the partner, maybe who is a bit more avoidant, they, like you said, often they learn very, very early, your needs doesn’t matter.

27:26.63
Thomas
So you just need to shut them down.

27:26.70
Michael Preston
That’s right.

27:29.24
Thomas
So they actually don’t know what they are. And it can be really frustrating to also keep being asked, right?

27:33.55
Michael Preston
Yep.

27:35.07
Thomas
What are your needs? Just tell me what you need. when actually you can’t you can’t get in touch with it, right?

27:40.66
Michael Preston
No.

27:41.18
Thomas
So it’s like, I don’t know. So I can’t express it and it can make somebody feel really incompetent, right?

27:47.23
Michael Preston
i

27:47.44
Thomas
And that’s again, what we often hear from an avoidant partner. I can’t get it right. that the de Yes.

27:51.99
Michael Preston
Even in therapy, they can often not get it right. Even if they go to therapy, if the therapist is pursuing them, trying to get them to acknowledge an emotion or trying to get them to do a thing and they’re shutting down even more,

28:00.23
Thomas
Yes. Yeah.

28:06.94
Thomas
Yes.

28:09.64
Michael Preston
they’re They’re often getting the message, even even in counseling, they can get the message that they’re not doing counseling right.

28:11.66
Thomas
Yes.

28:14.68
Michael Preston
Because their partners over there, like with tears in their eyes and offering the thing. And you know the therapist works really well with that. But then they go to the withdrawal and the withdrawal goes, I don’t know. And the therapist goes, what am I supposed to do with that?

28:25.65
Michael Preston
right And I’ve been there, and I know many therapists have shared that with me. But ah in in staying in this, what I’ve really come to learn is, man, what a devastating place to be.

28:35.13
Thomas
yeah

28:35.23
Michael Preston
What a devastating place to be. in your own body where you don’t know what’s going on and you’re not being malicious and you’re not being unkind, you really don’t know.

28:40.27
Thomas
Yes.

28:45.13
Michael Preston
And so beginning to know, clearly send need signals to your partner is going to be, can you begin to acknowledge what it’s like to be you?

28:54.36
Thomas
Yes.

28:54.41
Michael Preston
Can you begin to put those words together?

28:56.90
Thomas
Yeah.

28:56.93
Michael Preston
and Can

28:57.74
Thomas
and it was And even in that, as you’re saying that, I’m like, and it’s also so hard to recognize sometimes our partner’s needs, which can be very frustrating for them, right?

29:07.31
Michael Preston
No.

29:07.43
Thomas
if Because they’re avoidant if they can’t even sense their own needs, which again, there’s a good reason for why that is. So if they can’t even send those, it’s hard to acknowledge that these are valid needs in another, right?

29:19.51
Thomas
If we learned that actually they’re not valid in us, we have to shut them down. And then suddenly I hear that my part, that is why these shameful categories of calling it needy came up, right? It’s very often this, Hey, but I was told that these needs were not okay.

29:33.74
Thomas
Cause when I cried, when I needed comfort, I got told to shut up. Yeah.

29:37.79
Michael Preston
That’s right.

29:38.46
Thomas
So suddenly when they experience that need instead of being able to respond to it or be accepting it often become judgment right. Because it’s like the model they had of the world that these needs are not okay so that get projected on and then the disconnect happens again right well well actually all of this is valid.

29:57.25
Michael Preston
yes

29:57.38
Thomas
All of this is valid, they are just different adaptive strategies to the environment we had. They are just different models of the world, right? And all our needs are valid.

30:08.51
Thomas
The need to have to run away from too much stress is totally valid. That’s why the strategy was biologically developed.

30:15.73
Michael Preston
Yeah.

30:15.86
Thomas
The strategy to need another person of comfort is totally valid.

30:19.97
Michael Preston
Yeah.

30:20.10
Thomas
That’s why biologically it was developed, right?

30:22.18
Michael Preston
I remember we had a holiday.

30:22.28
Thomas
They are all valid.

30:25.65
Michael Preston
um We were back in the States living in Mississippi. Our our house was pretty small. We only had maybe 1200 square feet, right? American small. yeah But in that 1200 square feet, we had my three kids, my dog, my brother-in-law, his wife, their dog, and my brother-in-law and his wife.

30:50.86
Michael Preston
So there was a lot of us in a very small footprint house. And remember we started off the the thing, we were going to be together for several days and and we started off by telling everyone, you don’t have to be here the whole time.

31:03.32
Thomas
Mm.

31:04.17
Michael Preston
If you need a break from the chaos that is having so many people in a small space, Here’s the bookstore, if you like to read books. Here’s where a good coffee shop is, if you like that. Here’s where the pub is. If you need a break, if you need some downtime, even though we don’t see each other very often and it can feel pressure to be around and kind of soak in all of this, if you, what you need to do to find your calm and find your place is to go take an hour, two hours, and just sit quietly by yourself, that is welcome.

31:37.12
Michael Preston
you are allowed to do that.

31:37.16
Thomas
Yes.

31:38.25
Michael Preston
And that seems really, because you don’t always get that message explicitly, especially around the holidays, right? But it was just acknowledging that not everybody wants to be around everybody all the time.

31:49.42
Thomas
Yes.

31:49.94
Michael Preston
And it’s okay to say, I need a break.

31:53.16
Thomas
yeah

31:54.19
Michael Preston
Right?

31:54.83
Thomas
Absolutely. You know, I remember going actually on a holiday with this guy, my friend in Spain, right?

31:55.20
Michael Preston
yeah

31:59.87
Thomas
And he said to me before, and he was a bit nervous. He said, Thomas, there’s something I have to talk to you about.

32:04.01
Michael Preston
you

32:04.11
Thomas
I said, sure. What is it? He said, you know, we’re going to be together for a little while, like quite intense. And he said, there will be times where I need to be on my own. And then he started trying to justify it’s not because of you.

32:16.79
Thomas
I said, you can slow, slow down.

32:19.14
Michael Preston
Yeah.

32:19.89
Thomas
It’s okay.

32:20.96
Michael Preston
It’s okay. Yeah.

32:22.38
Thomas
I said, it’s okay. I don’t think it’s about me. I said, you know, I get it. And sometimes I might, I might need some time and it’s okay.

32:27.85
Michael Preston
you know help Yeah. Yeah.

32:31.76
Thomas
Right. And, and I think that’s a good model for how simple it can be. It doesn’t mean it is for all the reasons we have discussed, but it can be right.

32:38.60
Michael Preston
oh No, no, no.

32:41.74
Thomas
It’s the fact that yes, we have these needs. They’re not always going to be compatible, but that’s okay too. And actually, because you know the thing I often get is, okay, so even if we can express all our needs to each other, then there’ll be times where we can’t meet each other needs. And I said, of course, and that is totally fine too. However,

33:03.62
Thomas
There’s a real intimacy in even the act of being able to express our internal will to our partner and not be shut down, but be validated. Right. So even in saying, Hey, I get that, you know, and that’s valid. I can’t give you that cause I’m too, let’s say my partner want the massage and I say, I get that touch is amazing. I love it. I get you want the massage.

33:27.57
Thomas
Tonight I’m too tired because I work for 10 hours and I just have to rest. But maybe I can do it tomorrow if I have more energy, right? So even just in acknowledging, hearing their world and what they need is already connection.

33:40.58
Michael Preston
That’s right.

33:40.66
Thomas
Even if of course I can’t always give them everything they want and that’s okay too.

33:45.88
Michael Preston
Yeah. If, if what you’re naming, right? And this is the question of what gets in the way. Why don’t we do that? If our model on the inside and whether you are an avoidant attachment or anxious attachment, right? The message is going to be the same, but different.

34:09.98
Michael Preston
If the model on the inside isn’t, my needs will be responded to with love and care. Then you’re going to struggle with the idea of sharing them.

34:22.81
Michael Preston
It’s going to get hard.

34:22.89
Thomas
Yes.

34:25.04
Michael Preston
Avoidant personalities won’t, they they won’t acknowledge them even in their own self.

34:29.83
Thomas
Yeah.

34:30.17
Michael Preston
And then oftentimes the anxious side of it will go at it in really unhelpful, unclear way. right, to get those needs met, right?

34:40.42
Thomas
Yes.

34:44.02
Thomas
Yes.

34:44.06
Michael Preston
Oftentimes with a lot of criticism and and, why can’t you just this? Why can’t you just that? Why can’t you just this, right? do that right often So those are really, because for insecure attachment styles, the responsiveness wasn’t there, right? And so the learning was, I can’t just, I can’t just say it.

34:48.86
Thomas
You didn’t do this. that-dada

35:04.70
Thomas
Yes.

35:06.71
Michael Preston
But what so when when couples ask what keeps us from what keeps couples from asking for what they need, it’s because the internal model isn’t expressing a need is a legitimate way of getting that need met.

35:18.81
Thomas
Yes.

35:19.66
Michael Preston
And it’s vulnerable.

35:19.71
Thomas
And it’s risky, right? It’s risky. There’s a risk. Yeah.

35:24.58
Michael Preston
And there’s no way way around the risk of it.

35:27.24
Thomas
Yes.

35:27.27
Michael Preston
What I will say is find a way to risk something small.

35:32.92
Thomas
Yes.

35:32.97
Michael Preston
Right. So if you think about it, like jumping, I think about jumping off a cliff into a pool of water, you’re, you’re not likely to start at at a really high spot.

35:38.54
Thomas
yeah Yes.

35:42.52
Michael Preston
You might start really low and that risk feels like a manageable risk.

35:43.99
Thomas
like that.

35:46.64
Thomas
Yes.

35:46.74
Michael Preston
And you go, okay, cool. I can jump and you jump and you find out it’s fun. and it’s exhilarating and and you get in the water and it’s good, right? If you have a responsive partner and this is where it gets hard, what is so risky about expressing needs and why we call it a vulnerable thing is because it depends on somebody else responding with care and love.

36:05.48
Thomas
yes yeah yes yes

36:06.53
Michael Preston
Whoo. Cause then it’s out of, once it’s out of my mouth and out there, it’s out of my control. And we like to keep as much control as we possibly can. In our needs expressed, we lose all control because we have to wait for the responder to say, I see that.

36:23.07
Michael Preston
and And even like you said, even if I can’t meet it, can I acknowledge and legitimize what you’re asking for and help seek, find a way to get what you need?

36:23.17
Thomas
yeah

36:33.06
Thomas
yes

36:33.14
Michael Preston
Can we do that together? That’s a response that if my partner shares a need and I respond with love and care, then they might be willing to go a little bit higher on that

36:44.43
Thomas
Yes.

36:45.37
Michael Preston
cliff and jump a little bit more. And then each time they jump, if they land on the water and it’s deep enough and it’s whole enough and they got it right there, it’s good.

36:51.95
Thomas
Yes.

36:54.69
Michael Preston
They might go a little bit higher. And so you might find that expressing needs becomes easier the more you do it.

36:56.54
Thomas
Yeah.

37:01.53
Thomas
yeah

37:03.52
Michael Preston
And, and this is the difficult part, your partner responds, right? It’s the, it’s, it’s the quality of that response.

37:14.13
Thomas
Yes.

37:14.65
Michael Preston
that makes the risk feel less risky.

37:17.78
Thomas
Yes.

37:18.03
Michael Preston
It’s always risky, but I can tell you from experience, it’s less risky today than it was 17 years ago when I got married.

37:24.40
Thomas
Yeah.

37:27.02
Thomas
Yeah.

37:27.92
Michael Preston
Expressing a need was pretty risky to me 17 years ago, but with a whole lot of practice, that idea of expressing a need has become way easier and less risky

37:29.23
Thomas
Yeah.

37:38.77
Thomas
yes

37:44.93
Michael Preston
I’m actually more confident today that my wife will respond positively towards my needs than even I will give myself, right?

37:52.88
Thomas
Yes.

37:54.37
Michael Preston
What I mean by that is my wife will say something like, why don’t you go and take an hour and do some reading? I’m like, oh my God, this, this, this. She goes, but you also need that. I’m like, oh yeah.

38:05.35
Michael Preston
Like, she will be positively responding towards my needs before even I will let myself do that. Because I want to do all the other things, right?

38:13.83
Thomas
yes

38:15.92
Michael Preston
But that’s become easier for me to say, i can take a I can take a minute because I know my partner wants me to take that minute.

38:19.74
Thomas
yeah

38:23.26
Thomas
And that’s a beautiful, beautiful model you’re describing, right? Because that is exactly, even though you say, Hey, maybe I had an anxious attachment, right? But they created a secure dynamic in where even your partner is supportive in you looking out for yourself. And that’s what’s so beautiful. If we have somebody, you know, and that can be avoided or anxious.

38:44.63
Thomas
that really struggle thinking that their needs are okay. In the pure act of us validating and reminding them and supporting them in looking out for their needs, it gives permission for them to learning a new model, which is amazing.

38:57.98
Michael Preston
that’s right yeah

38:58.61
Thomas
As you said, now it’s easier for you because you had that internal model happen many, many times, right? That slowly rewires that actually my needs are important. Actually, I do matter.

39:09.42
Thomas
And that’s so beautiful to hear as you’re saying that. And and you know, we talk obviously in EFT about the ah external model we have of the external elements of our internal model as well, right? Where we have this idea of how do I view myself, right? And I guess a good question can be to sit down and say, what does this mean about me?

39:30.85
Thomas
Right. And again, I remember when I studied in psychedelic assisted, you know, facilitation, psychedelic assisted therapy in the Netherlands, which is very much about how psychedelics kind of disintegrated this sense of identity, right.

39:42.90
Thomas
And how we take everything personal and the internal models we have created of self. Right. And very often it’s very difficult to express these needs because of what we have made it mean about ourself.

39:53.19
Michael Preston
Mm-hmm.

39:54.16
Thomas
Right. The response that happened. So a good thing is always to sit down and say, Hey, So if I get this response, what would I tell myself that that means, right?

40:04.38
Michael Preston
That’s right.

40:05.25
Thomas
And we obviously do that in therapy as well, right? As part of the model to understand what meaning people make out of it.

40:08.92
Michael Preston
yeah

40:11.12
Thomas
But that’s a good thing that people can start doing themselves, right? To gain a little bit more awareness. What do I actually tell myself?

40:16.61
Michael Preston
Right.

40:18.06
Thomas
Because once we can distance o ourselves and not take this as reality, but just see that’s how the brain interprets what’s happening. We don’t have to take it as reality anymore.

40:28.52
Thomas
and We can kind of distance ou ourselves, right? Which means that that response that normally follow that, right? The emotional response, somatic response and reaction, we can slow that down a little bit and just kind of observe it and say, Oh, my mind is telling me this narrative again, right?

40:44.84
Michael Preston
Yeah.

40:45.33
Thomas
That I’m not worthy or whatever it might be that that meaning is.

40:49.34
Michael Preston
Right. or Or the narrative that if I get my needs met, it comes at the expense of my partner’s needs.

40:55.00
Thomas
Yes.

40:55.71
Michael Preston
Right. And then, oh, I don’t want to, I don’t want to, again, that becomes, I don’t want to take something from them.

41:00.83
Thomas
yeah

41:01.60
Michael Preston
Right. And, and being in a partnership, a good partnership, a lasting partnership isn’t, well, there are times my, in order for my wife to get what she needs, I can’t get what I need.

41:07.75
Thomas
Yes. Yes.

41:13.44
Michael Preston
That’s just part of having kids and the dog.

41:15.71
Thomas
Yes.

41:15.78
Michael Preston
That’s part of life. But it’s it’s not, I can’t ever have my needs.

41:20.64
Thomas
yeah

41:21.23
Michael Preston
right We do at times have to trade off whose needs are getting met today. right In the assurance that I know my needs are going to be met as well. i it’s not It’s not one or the other all the time.

41:30.78
Thomas
Yeah.

41:34.30
Thomas
Yes.

41:34.90
Michael Preston
right Sometimes it’s give and take, but knowing that I don’t always have to give and I don’t always have to take.

41:37.18
Thomas
Yes.

41:40.59
Thomas
Yes. And that’s where it’s good to check in with our capacity, right? Because sometimes we do have the capacity to give and maybe even ignore some of our own needs. At other times we aren’t, right? And that would be compromising ourselves.

41:52.55
Thomas
And that again, come back to this checking in where I am at, right? and what’s happening internally to know do i actually have the resources and you know this is a very good point that that again has been interesting in my own dynamic right to help my partner recognize and say slow down for a moment and check are you doing this because you feel you have to do it to be safe or because you want to do it.

42:12.27
Michael Preston
and

42:19.49
Michael Preston
That’s right.

42:19.53
Thomas
And that’s a good internal question to ask before taking an action and doing something for the other, right?

42:26.06
Michael Preston
Yeah.

42:26.23
Thomas
Do I want, and sometimes when we have spare energy, we want to do it. Sometimes I feel fresh and good and I want to give my partner a massage and it’s great to see her relax, fall asleep, right?

42:35.63
Michael Preston
and

42:35.77
Thomas
And feel good. And sometimes it’s good to just slow down and say, well, hey, do you actually want to do this as because you’re feeling some anxiety, right?

42:40.10
Michael Preston
Right.

42:45.14
Thomas
Or is it just because you have spare to give? And if we’re feeling anxiety, it’s good to maybe just slow down and say, maybe you don’t have the capacity to do this right now. And maybe it’s better to say, I can’t do this right now, but maybe another time.

42:54.55
Michael Preston
Yeah.

42:58.70
Thomas
Cause that way we honor ourself and that’s also helpful for the dynamic, right?

42:58.96
Michael Preston
Yeah.

43:02.77
Thomas
We need to do both on our partner and on ourself.

43:05.96
Michael Preston
yeah Yeah, it’s a tricky thing, what you’re naming.

43:09.09
Thomas
It is.

43:09.16
Michael Preston
It’s a tricky thing, right?

43:10.26
Thomas
It is.

43:11.04
Michael Preston
Say, oh, are you telling me that I can say to my partner, I don’t want to give you a massage, right? I don’t have the capacity.

43:18.56
Thomas
Yes.

43:20.90
Michael Preston
And if I say that, my partner, right, in that moment, is either going to say, I understand, right, or they’re going to lower their shoulder, drop their head, right, and and have a response that goes,

43:35.09
Michael Preston
Oh, okay.

43:35.79
Thomas
Yes.

43:37.75
Michael Preston
You know, that deep sigh, all the things that says you’ve upset me and then they get into the, okay, no, no, it’s fine. Right. And then again, all right, off to the negative dance they go.

43:45.09
Thomas
Yes.

43:45.78
Michael Preston
Right.

43:46.34
Thomas
Yes.

43:46.33
Michael Preston
But couples finding that way, finding that balance in their relationship, it’s tricky stuff. And it takes a lot of practice.

43:53.91
Thomas
It does. It does.

43:55.01
Michael Preston
It takes a lot of practice and a lot of assurance that that responsiveness from our partner, goes both ways, that my partner is assured that my responsiveness isn’t just me trying to get out of it.

44:07.59
Thomas
Yes.

44:10.16
Michael Preston
But it’s a real like I don’t have that capacity.

44:11.15
Thomas
Yes.

44:13.85
Michael Preston
And the assurance that my my partner knows that I’m coming back. This isn’t me getting out of it to go away and stay away.

44:22.21
Thomas
And that’s it, right? Because that trust comes from also having experience, you respond to their needs.

44:27.41
Michael Preston
in

44:27.96
Thomas
And suddenly there is a trust that when you say no, but of course, if in general needs are never responded to, you’re right. There probably wouldn’t be the trust.

44:34.86
Michael Preston
If your partner has a need and you say, oh, I don’t have the capacity every single time, and they’re gonna they’re going to eventually go, no, no, no, no. This is about you not like just avoiding something.

44:46.56
Thomas
in

44:46.77
Michael Preston
We’ve got to talk about that. right But I mean, John Batman, who does great research, you knows he’s got a book on called The Science of Trust.

44:49.28
Thomas
and

44:55.73
Michael Preston
and And you don’t need to read it because you can bullet down the whole book in a single phrase, which is what he uses. right With trust is repeated acts of trustworthiness. It’s responsiveness.

45:06.03
Thomas
Yes.

45:06.68
Michael Preston
It’s predictability. That’s what trust is.

45:09.34
Thomas
yeah

45:09.45
Michael Preston
it’s If you go away, can I predict you’ll come back?

45:13.48
Thomas
That’s right.

45:14.32
Michael Preston
right That’s okay then.

45:15.02
Thomas
and

45:15.97
Michael Preston
Then I don’t get so afraid you’re leaving.

45:18.10
Thomas
That is so spot on because, you know, I always say the brain is a predictable organ. It’s a social organ and a predictable organ, meaning it’s meant to help us be social, right?

45:28.60
Thomas
Cause that improves our survival. And it’s also meant to try and predict the future, meaning it’s constantly running everything that happens through previous models to try and predict what might happen.

45:39.86
Thomas
And that can work in our favor. Like I don’t have to figure out how to open a door every time because I have a predictive model, but

45:45.61
Michael Preston
That’s

45:46.26
Thomas
But it can also work against us if the predictive model is other people are going to be hostile or whatever it might be. right But it’s so spot on that it’s all about predictability.

45:57.41
Michael Preston
That’s right.

45:57.64
Thomas
And the more predictive model we can create in our relationship, the more there is that sense of safety. right If they know this is what I can count on from you to respond. right And that means I can also trust if something deviate, that that doesn’t mean that this normal predictive model suddenly isn’t there any anymore.

46:16.44
Michael Preston
That’s right.

46:16.65
Thomas
right So I think that’s such a key, which is why consistency is so important. We said consistency making time for each other, consistency doing small acts of ah gratitude.

46:27.00
Thomas
right It’s all about the consistency, not about the big flashy gesture.

46:32.71
Michael Preston
right

46:32.98
Thomas
because the brain doesn’t care so much. It might feel good, short-term dopamine, but it doesn’t last very long, right? A couple of days later, all gone.

46:41.72
Michael Preston
that That’s going to be normal.

46:43.26
Thomas
Yes.

46:43.90
Michael Preston
Right. and because It becomes in as an anomaly.

46:44.67
Thomas
Yes. yes

46:47.25
Michael Preston
Right. So even if like if you’re trying to make up for years of neglect through a flash in the pan and actually and actually the brain will register it as a as a completely different event unrelated to all the little things that were missed.

46:53.81
Thomas
Yes.

47:01.22
Thomas
Yes. Yes.

47:01.35
Michael Preston
Right. But once you start showing up in those little moments. Right. When you start saying to your partner, hey, I need a minute.

47:08.98
Thomas
Yes.

47:09.63
Michael Preston
And you return.

47:12.34
Thomas
Yes.

47:13.30
Michael Preston
Right. If you say I need a minute and you don’t come back, that’s another thing you’re teaching your partner, which is when my partner goes away, I can’t trust them to come back.

47:22.54
Thomas
yes

47:22.94
Michael Preston
So then your partner is going to chase you because that’s the predicting model, right?

47:24.73
Thomas
Yes. Yes.

47:26.47
Michael Preston
He said go away. What he meant is stay away.

47:29.44
Thomas
Yes. And you know, this is also why, you know, and this is, I think, in the, wait, I lost my friend.

47:30.07
Michael Preston
i

47:36.78
Thomas
I suddenly lost my friend.

47:40.10
Thomas
I had a point, but it’s gone. Anyway, that happens.

47:42.88
Michael Preston
Fair enough.

47:43.82
Thomas
It happens. It happens. But yeah, I just think it’s very fascinating, this idea about predictability and the consistency. Oh yeah, this was the point. The point was that what tend to happen and what we also find, right, is that So people for a long time haven’t been able to respond to each other.

48:01.16
Thomas
And suddenly the partner say, okay, I’m in therapy, I’m making an effort, but hey, I’m responding. And suddenly we talked a little bit about this last time. My partner gets pissed and they’re like, I’m actually trying now.

48:12.14
Thomas
And that’s really frustrating because I’m doing what they asked me and yet I’m not getting a positive response.

48:16.79
Michael Preston
Right.

48:17.38
Thomas
And often That’s like, I think you mentioned in a previous podcast, it’s built off for so many years, the anger, the resentment that actually it can be quite hard to receive when then suddenly they come. And the reason I’m saying that is if you’re sitting there listening and you’re trying to practice this and now you’re actually doing what your partner is asking, but you still maybe get a bit of a hostile response. It might not just be because they are still stuck in the old model of predictability. They still anticipate that you’re going to go back to this.

48:47.62
Michael Preston
That’s right.

48:47.68
Thomas
So that’s why so it needs to happen enough time for them to build a new model so don’t give up just keep going even if a while you might not get the response you were hoping for right when you’re responding to the need keep going so they can overtime build a new model.

48:51.00
Michael Preston
That’s right.

49:04.36
Thomas
That’s what i wanted to say.

49:05.61
Michael Preston
No, that’s so important. um that’s That’s huge. So so let’s let’s take a second and leave our our listeners with ah place to a place to lean into their relationship.

49:16.43
Michael Preston
right And what we’re saying in this episode is to lean into your own awareness of your own needs.

49:22.74
Thomas
yeah

49:23.17
Michael Preston
If you you know if you’re here as an avoidant attachment style, if that really resonates with you. Can you begin to acknowledge your need for another? right Like deeply within you, can you say, do I really need people? Do I need someone? And if I need someone, what does that mean? What does it mean that I do need someone? Right? That’s a really important question. And then if you’re on the anxious side of things, right? If the anxious attachment style really makes a lot of sense to you, you obviously likely are going, do I need another person? You’re like, yes, I need another person. I know that about myself. Ask yourself, how do you express your needs?

50:03.56
Thomas
Hmm.

50:04.94
Michael Preston
i Is it clear?

50:05.76
Thomas
Yes.

50:08.06
Michael Preston
Is it in an approachable way? Does it come with focus on self? Does it come with criticism? i Does it come with buts and conditions? i How are we going about? Because I know as someone with an anxious attachment, it can like our needs can come hard and fast and then they come out in big ways.

50:35.62
Michael Preston
and and then And then there almost is no way for our partner really to see and understand and even find a ah good way. and And then can we begin to acknowledge because oftentimes as an anxious attachment person, we can um we can what we can miss the fact that some of those needs are being met and and and really focus on the ones that aren’t. And so can can can you begin to say what needs what needs of mine are being met?

51:04.06
Michael Preston
How is my partner doing a good job? And what would it look like for me to acknowledge that with them? So so it’s just a little place to work on you and take an honest look at your relationship today.

51:11.42
Thomas
and

51:19.47
Thomas
Yeah, I think that’s a beautiful note to end on, isn’t it?

51:22.59
Michael Preston
Yeah. Well, sounds good. we We’re going to continue this conversation. There’s so many things that we mentioned today that we could carry on with. and And even just jumping, you know using these conversations as platforms to continue to jumping off of what we want to say.

51:36.31
Thomas
Yes.

51:36.69
Michael Preston
If you have a question, you can reach out to us. You can leave a comment here. You can find the channels we’re on. We’re on YouTube. We’re on, what else? What what are we on, Thomas?

51:45.54
Thomas
Well, Instagram, YouTube, and of course we’re on Spotify and Apple podcasts.

51:45.60
Michael Preston
ah

51:50.44
Thomas
So just look for couples in focus and and you should find all the content and we’ll of course update it with a weekly podcast so you can follow. Then I think you get notifications.

52:01.61
Thomas
um And and yeah we’ll continue to explore and answer your questions and just look at all these topics of what it means to be a human being in relation to other human beings, right which can be so complex and so simple at the same time, because the core needs are so utterly simple.

52:14.91
Michael Preston
Yeah.

52:17.91
Michael Preston
Hmm.

52:18.00
Thomas
right which is why the model for EFT actually is quite simple. And yet it can be so utterly complex when we have constructed different models of the world and what we anticipate, right?

52:22.49
Michael Preston
Yeah.

52:29.75
Thomas
And really that’s what it’s about. It’s about changing how we predict the world is going to respond to us, right? And that can create a very, very different life. And that’s what I think is so beautiful about all this work.

52:42.49
Michael Preston
Yep, a lot of time. It’s good to talk to you and we’ll tune in next week. Yeah I might

52:46.60
Thomas
Amazing. I’ll see you then.