Falling Back in Love: Is It Possible?

Thomas Westenholz (00:10.894)
So welcome back to Couples in Focus. I am here with Michael, as usual, and we’re going to go into a new question from our listeners to try and answer. And yeah, it will be fascinating actually to dive into this because I think the key question we’re going to be looking on today, right, Michael, is this idea of if we kind of been drifting apart over a long time, then is there really hope? You know, can we come back together?

Michael Preston (00:34.359)
Mm-hmm.

Thomas Westenholz (00:40.53)
Or is it, you know, is it kind of lost? which is a big and difficult question, right? Cause there’s a lot of emotion attached to that question is kind of this craving I’m hearing, but at the same time saying, I don’t know whether to hope or let go. Right. So, so that’s a big, I think a very big point. And it’s often when people obviously come to us, right. When they’re at this stage and they are not really sure. Cause not a lot of people come and it’s a bit annoying and they’re thinking something is a bit off.

Michael Preston (00:54.679)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Michael Preston (01:00.887)
That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (01:08.962)
They normally come at that end, right? Where they’re like, I’m not sure whether this can be fixed or not, but we want to give it a go. So yeah, let’s start there. And I obviously love to hear what you have to say about this.

Michael Preston (01:11.095)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (01:18.4)
Awesome.

Yeah, yeah, I love it. It’s important. Can we come back from the brink? I guess we’ll find out.

Thomas Westenholz (01:35.96)
So yes, let’s explore that more. know, can we come back from the brink? And again, I think like in the last episode, we started by saying, hey, it’s not black or white. It’s more gray, right? And there’s not a right or wrong answer here. I think what just came up as we kind of posted this question, my first thought was, well, it depends, right? Because if we are saying we have drifted apart over a long time, like two little islands, right?

Michael Preston (01:58.039)
Excuse me.

Michael Preston (02:03.927)
Mm-hmm.

Thomas Westenholz (02:04.32)
and the ocean in between has gotten bigger and bigger. It also kind of depends on how much energy do both people have, how much willingness do both people have, right? Because we have to now cross this little ocean that has been created between us, right? And are we even willing to get in and try and swim, right? So I think the first part is, and that’s often something we look at in couple therapy, right? Do we actually have two people where the goals align and that both have a willingness to be in therapy, right?

Michael Preston (02:15.98)
Mm-hmm.

Thomas Westenholz (02:33.73)
because we tend to not work with people if the goals no longer align and you know one person is done and they don’t want to get in the water and swim, right? While we obviously respect that, then we also know that then we probably can’t cross that gap anymore, right? If one of them said, no, I’m not getting into a boat, I’m not swimming, I’m done. Then we can only create probably more disappointment for the person who is ready to get in and swim, right? So I think that’s…

Michael Preston (02:42.017)
Right. That’s right.

Michael Preston (02:52.203)
Yeah. Yeah.

Thomas Westenholz (03:00.526)
kind of the starting point is not the answer to the question, but it’s kind of the starting point that there needs to be.

Michael Preston (03:02.965)
No, no, not at all. It is, but it’s an incredible, nobody’s gonna start.

Michael Preston (03:11.657)
It would be a shame to not assess for that first, right? We really got to make sure that we have those shared goals, right? We do, we’ve got to make sure we’ve got, and I want to say, I don’t need someone to believe they can come back from the brink, right? But I do need someone to have some, can do a lot with a very small amount of hope, right? It doesn’t have to be buckets and heaps of hope for the relationship, but someone does.

have to have something within them that says, I would like to see if we can come back from this brink. We do need that much. If someone is an absolute like, I’m not interested. Yeah, what’s that? can, you know, we’ve been trained in relational CPR, but we can’t raise the dead, right?

Thomas Westenholz (03:49.848)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (04:03.254)
Yes. And you know, it is interesting because this was literally my fault as you were speaking was there’s let’s say there’s been a car crash, right? And one person has had whatever some kind of injury. So for us to help rehabilitate that injury, at least they have to be willing to try and get up and walk again. If they just lie down and say, I will not get out of bed, then yeah, we can’t really rehabilitate them and get them to walk again. So there needs to be, and it’s okay that they doubt whether they can walk again.

Michael Preston (04:20.919)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (04:27.617)
Yeah.

Michael Preston (04:32.694)
Mm-hmm.

Thomas Westenholz (04:32.856)
But they need to have the willingness to try and get up with us. Right. And then we can work even with that, as you said. So I think that’s a bare minimum that is kind of required. Right. And if that isn’t there, then yes, it probably will be very difficult to come back together and fall back in love again. Right. So that was just. Yeah. So that’s kind of the starting point, I think, for these kinds of conversations. And, and, know, what we do found is.

Michael Preston (04:51.095)
It will be, yeah.

Michael Preston (04:56.309)
Yeah, absolutely.

Thomas Westenholz (05:00.814)
You know, a lot of the time, yes, it is possible, but it’s often a different route than people might anticipate that it is, right? Because I think we talked about obviously the needs in our last, that’s right, you know? And this is why we made, we laughed in the first podcast when I said we are jungle guides or whatever, right? But that kind of is what it is, right? Because when you’re in that place, you can’t see there are so many leaves where we meant to go. So.

Michael Preston (05:07.787)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It’s always a different route than people are thinking.

Michael Preston (05:21.515)
Yeah. It’s not- yeah, it’s not wrong.

Thomas Westenholz (05:30.338)
part of what we are able to do is help see, hey, here’s a path that we can walk, right? Where we are more likely to be able to get to somewhere where we all want to be. And yeah, I feel that we start with this element of, there’s a willingness. And then we start discovering what is that path actually back? And as I said, it’s usually is not what people might anticipate, right? When they come in and start saying, but he did this and you know, she’s always telling me off and

Michael Preston (05:50.551)
Mm-hmm.

Thomas Westenholz (05:59.404)
Yeah, but that’s because you don’t do things that is not the path that will lead us back to feeling in love, right?

Michael Preston (06:05.011)
It isn’t. It isn’t at all. Right. And so I want to take a second, just read the question as the listener offered, which is how do we fall back in love after years of him being emotionally unavailable? Right. And what we’re naming right out the gate, right, is how do

I’m going to say this is likely a pursuer because they’re the ones asking the questions, but we get some which are questions in there. But what they’re saying is there was this love that we had. There was this love that we shared. And over time, the emotional connection began to fade. at some point my partner became unavailable to me and I couldn’t find a way

to get that emotional connection back because there’s a clear and direct link between that emotional collection and that pursuers sense of love, right? That I matter and you matter and all of that is built in emotional connection, right? Which ours are pretty good at like holding on to love, right? I love you, I still love you, I’ve always loved you.

And the emotional connection, because that need has been disowned for so long, are able to kind of feel that a little bit more like, no, I think we’re doing good and I still love you and you you’re all those things, right? And so just to name that, for each person, that’s gonna feel really different, right? The more withdrawn partner is not going to realize the emotional connection is gone or severed. They’re gonna say things are different, but it’s not gonna be as…

as painfully obvious as someone who’s like this, who’s writing in this kind of question.

Thomas Westenholz (08:02.402)
that’s spot on, which is why often the perception will be quite different from both partners in this dynamic, right? Because what’s often happened is we meet and in the meat, we all have a strong chemical response. mean, emotions are quite high in the beginning. We call it honeymoon stage, right? People are familiar with that term. And, and we just had an elevated level of hormones for a while that kind of keeps it going. But then after a while, as every day take over and these more patterns that we have learned, right? The more avoidant, the more pursuing, et cetera, patterns.

Michael Preston (08:06.583)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (08:16.587)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, of course

Michael Preston (08:23.316)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Preston (08:30.711)
That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (08:31.554)
become more dominant and what happens is it’s like the emotional, the thermostat is slowly turned down, but it happens quite gradually, right? Slowly until we are down and suddenly it’s not feeling quite cold for one of the partners, right? And that’s what we say, Hey, I’m not feeling that emotional connection anymore, right? That chemical sensation isn’t there. I’m not feeling it. And that’s really difficult. And over time becomes more and more difficult, right?

At least for one person, sometimes more than the other, right? Cause you’re spot on there. Avoidance obviously sometimes it’s even quite baffled when it suddenly comes up, right? And one person, the pursuer might say, I’m sick and tired of this. We need couple therapy. I had enough of this, right? I want a divorce. And that can come as a real shock, as you said, to the more avoidant partner who’s like, I thought it was fine. Cause the functional things have worked. Yes.

Michael Preston (09:13.419)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Preston (09:21.365)
Right. Yeah, we’re good. We don’t argue. don’t, you know, we don’t, don’t always, I hear that all the time, right? We don’t, we’re good. We don’t argue. We don’t do those things. All those, you know, those bad couples out there are doing and their partner is going, wake up. We don’t do anything. Right?

Thomas Westenholz (09:34.125)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (09:38.208)
Yes, that’s right. And it’s almost like one person have noticed that that firmness that was being slowly dialed down, right? Because for them, that’s the norm. That’s their norm. So they don’t feel cold because they have learned to be in a cold environment. They walk around with lots of clothing on, a layers on, right? So they don’t even notice it while the other person is shivering, right? And thinking, this doesn’t feel good. I like when it was warm and we felt close, right? And it was fussy.

Michael Preston (09:43.543)
That’s right. Yeah. That’s right.

Michael Preston (09:57.143)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (10:00.789)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Thomas Westenholz (10:07.938)
The question then, yeah, can we come back? And this is where often I would say in most cases, yes, as we said, if there is, if the willingness, if the willingness.

Michael Preston (10:13.771)
Yeah, me too. would say in most cases, yes, if the willingness is there, I would a hundred percent agree. Let’s, let’s make sure we’re really clear about that. Right? Yes, that can happen. Couples do it all the time in, in my office. I see that when couples have that willingness and they’re going, like, we bring, our more avoidant partner a little bit more on the dance floor and they start to have more conversation.

Thomas Westenholz (10:24.846)
Yes, exactly.

Michael Preston (10:43.435)
They start to share about what this experience is like for them, what the relationship is like for them, and what gets in the way, right? What has gotten in the way over the years? And they start to remove all the things that get in the way. And suddenly it’s like, trust and connection are back and people are more engaged suddenly.

Thomas Westenholz (11:02.766)
And this is why, you know, it can’t happen through the model that often brings them in there, right? So there’s a good saying, if we keep doing the same thing and expecting of different results, that the definition of insanity, right? And we do start going insane. So the traditional of trying to pursue or criticize doesn’t work. And you cannot fall back in love by trying to push your partner to do the things you would like them to do.

Michael Preston (11:15.051)
That’s right. Yeah.

Michael Preston (11:29.781)
No. Yep.

Thomas Westenholz (11:30.004)
It never works. It never works. It actually does the opposite, right? Which is why the distress grows bigger and bigger, right? The more you

Michael Preston (11:36.811)
Right. And, you can’t get your partner to stop pushing for something if you dig your heels in and don’t do anything different.

Thomas Westenholz (11:44.066)
That’s right too. Exactly. Which is why when we’re talking about, it possible? Yes, it is. But we have to change the way we make meaning out of what happens, the way we respond to what happens, right? That essentially also would change how we feel about what happens, right? Which is obviously part of what we do to try and bring people back together. And I think this is what I love so much about EFT, what really compelled me to it was that it wasn’t a couple of therapy model. was focused on

Michael Preston (12:00.971)
That’s

Thomas Westenholz (12:13.474)
the logical solutions, right? Because often people come in and they want the logical solutions. How can we get from A to B, from disconnect to feeling in love again, right? And then we talk about, we can make these compromises. Again, it doesn’t work long-term because it’s negating the underlying needs that are not being responded to and met and haven’t been for a long time, right? So we can’t fall back in love.

purely for logical solution orientated approaches, right? And we also know even trying to change behavior without changing the underlying processes that motivate that behavior also doesn’t work, which is why, yes, CBT has its place, but often it doesn’t work very well long term for a lot of issues exactly for that, because it’s focused on behavior, right? And if we only target behavior alone, and this is why when you chase your partner and say, you have to change these behaviors,

It tends to not work, right? Or if you, like you say, are docked in and say, I won’t change behavior. Yes, that doesn’t work. Then we get stuck in these loops, right?

Michael Preston (13:11.383)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Preston (13:18.999)
That’s right. Yeah. And it’s not because people don’t know what to do. And anytime I’m working with a couple and I say, should you yell at your partner? I’ve never heard a couple say, yeah, that’s a great idea. Right? Should you call your partner names? Yeah, it’s immediate. No, we shouldn’t do that. Okay. Do you do those things? Like, does that happen from time to time? And they’re like, yeah, of course we do. Right. You know you shouldn’t and you do.

So then I’ll say, should you, like would it be helpful to your relationship to acknowledge the things your partner does that you really enjoy or even acknowledge the small things they do just to be helpful, like even the washing up, would that be helpful? And they go, yeah, yeah, that would be helpful, right? Would it be helpful to…

Michael Preston (14:15.937)
have a date night scheduled, right? Once a month, once a week, right? Some kind of rhythm for an intentional time to connect. Would that be helpful? And people will go, yes, that would be helpful, right? They’re looking me like I’m being stupid, but what I’m doing is drawing a point. And I’ll say, so what you’re telling me is you really actually know what to do and what would be helpful, and you know what wouldn’t be helpful. And what I hear you saying is we get stuck doing the things that we know

aren’t helpful. And we don’t do the things that we know would be helpful. Right. So that means me telling you what to do has no bearing on whether or not this is really going to work well. Because you already know what to do. And I deeply believe that about humans, what we really want to do is, hey, how can we help you have more access to the things you already know would be helpful?

Thomas Westenholz (14:51.8)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (15:15.47)
So spot on. you know, I also think even when we’re having this conversation, it’s important to even start with a framework of what is this love? We talk about love, right? How can we fall back in love is often the expression used in English, right? In love. And then we often have this model. And I certainly blame Hollywood to a big degree for giving us this model, right? Of everlasting happiness and high chemicals and excitement and tension.

Michael Preston (15:24.535)
I mean…

Michael Preston (15:28.332)
Yeah, yeah.

Michael Preston (15:41.559)
Yeah.

Thomas Westenholz (15:43.726)
and all this stuff as a framework of love. Yes.

Michael Preston (15:45.761)
Yeah, the happily ever after. I believe in as a, God, as like a title, but not as a definition of each and every chapter along the way. Does that make sense?

Thomas Westenholz (16:04.118)
Yes, absolutely does. And you know, this is where I think that the association that love is high emotional intensity often gets us lost, which is why I wanted to talk about this, right? Because often we have the association that love is about high emotional intensity, right? And then we almost seek it like any drug, right? And that’s literally what it is. It’s like a drug addiction, getting the high that eventually will crash and then get the high, right?

Michael Preston (16:12.853)
Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Michael Preston (16:20.833)
That’s right. That’s right. Yeah. I would…

Yeah.

Thomas Westenholz (16:31.564)
And to be honest, that’s the cycle that often is seen in abusive relationships is as very high intensity then abuse. And it actually create an addiction in the person exposed to it, right? Which is why they tend to keep going back as well. It’s very difficult to move away from that. And, and the reason I’m saying that is I think we need kind of a new framework to even know where is it we are going. If we don’t actually have any idea, no map of where we’re going, it’s difficult to find your way back when you got lost. Right. And I think that.

Michael Preston (16:35.423)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (16:43.287)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (16:54.005)
Yeah.

Michael Preston (16:59.563)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Thomas Westenholz (17:01.549)
The core framework for love actually is safety. And I think so that’s where we need to start. And I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with feeling intensive emotions, strong emotions. Of course it can feel wonderful. But it’s not the foundation and it’s built upon a foundation of safety. And this is where again, it’s helpful to go back to the model of children who grow up, right? Who feel confident, who feel self-assured, who feel safe is that

Michael Preston (17:06.508)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Michael Preston (17:14.591)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s great. Right.

Thomas Westenholz (17:30.518)
What is it that created that framework? We know kids are more likely to go explore the world and be confident if they know there’s a safety to fall back on that when they can come back to their parents, parents will respond to them, right? Will be there, will attune, will support them when things doesn’t go right or they’re overwhelmed. And this come back to again, part of what makes them flourish and feel love is knowing that there’s safety, right?

Michael Preston (17:54.433)
That’s right. So I love listening as you talk about this, cause it’s just like, here’s a fun analogy that’s just flying into my head. Cause I think about, I remember the very first time I held my wife’s hand. I was a teenager, right? I would have been 14 years old and I was sweating, right? It was so exciting. It was big and it was amazing. And I was in…

ninth grade and she was a senior and I was like, I’m cool. Check this out. And she’s awesome. So she wants to hold my hand. This is amazing. Right. Okay. It doesn’t quite do the same thing anymore. Right. But I love holding that woman’s hand still. And I love walking down the street holding it, but it doesn’t do the same thing. Right. It’s actually something very different. And I like this analogy I’m going to use that love is a lot like skydiving.

The, the, the initial like out of the plane and into the sky is super fun. If you’ve ever been skydiving, my wife, gifted me skydiving one time for my birthday. but she really gifted it to it. She got it for both of us. We both went, she really wanted to do it. So she took me for my birthday. I was like, this was not for, I mean, I loved it, but this was for you. but so, but when you jump out of the plane, right, there’s this rush and it’s amazing.

And you’re like, this is the most fun I’ve ever had in my life. And it’s a bit terrifying and woo, right? Okay, falling out of a plane without a parachute is only terrifying and not fun, right? It’s only the safety net of skydiving that makes even that first part fun. It’s the fact that I know I can pull this cord and this thing’s gonna pop up and I’m gonna land safely and soundly.

When I hold my wife’s hand today, it doesn’t send sparks. doesn’t send all, but it does give me a sense of being known and that no matter what I’m walking through in life, this is the one that I’m holding. Like this is a person, it’s really emotional.

Michael Preston (20:10.679)
Because she is my parachute, right? She is the thing that makes me feel safe. She is the thing that says, I’m not going to crash and burn because we’re going somewhere together. We’re doing something together, right? That level of safety, that level of significant other, I can hold her hand and her hand says, I’m here. And it says, it doesn’t matter where we’re going because we’re going there together. And we don’t always have to have the end in mind, right?

that love, that for me, right? If someone says, what is love? What is love in your relationship? It’s not sparks. not like it is the ultimate safety that says I’m going to be okay because we’re going there together.

Thomas Westenholz (20:53.55)
Beautiful, beautiful story. Thank you for sharing Michael. And I think that really hits home because it’s very felt, right? And I think that is a perfect way. Also the analogy, beautiful way, because again, the more and more times we jump out of that plane, even with a parachute, the less exciting it will become. Yeah, when we’ve done it a hundred times, it’s not as exciting as number one, right? But the fact is what you’re saying is, hey, it’s a parachute.

Michael Preston (20:56.288)
Yeah, yeah.

Michael Preston (21:08.428)
Mm-hmm.

That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (21:21.624)
That’s a love, right? It’s a parachute. That’s a foundation for why it felt good in the first place. And that is what gets lost. That when they come into our office, right? In couples therapy, they no longer feel there is a parachute anymore. Right? So.

Michael Preston (21:37.727)
That’s right. They’re kind of out on their own, right? There’s no hand to hold and let them know it’s going to be okay.

Thomas Westenholz (21:41.516)
Yes and then yes yes and then it’s just danger danger danger and and and that’s gonna and that’s gonna that’s right

Michael Preston (21:49.801)
Okay, danger. It’s not fun anymore, right? And it’s really hard to feel love in a place where it’s only danger. Yeah.

Thomas Westenholz (21:59.49)
That’s right. And this is what I felt was so important to get across, right? Because often in that question is I want these intense emotions again. And we are not going to feel like you said the same way the first time you held your or the first time we jumped out of the plane. It’s never going to be the same when you’ve done it a thousand times or 10,000 times. However, what really we can help bring back is the parachute. Yeah.

Michael Preston (22:08.407)
That’s correct.

Michael Preston (22:12.535)
Mm-mm. Mm-mm.

Michael Preston (22:19.221)
No.

Michael Preston (22:26.263)
Mm-hmm.

Thomas Westenholz (22:27.286)
And that means, of course, you can still go do new exciting things with your partner. But as you said, it’s only going to feel great when the parachute is there anyway, which is why when your relationship is in trouble trying to refine and discover love, which I know sometimes people come in and say, but we tried to go on this holiday, but it didn’t really work. Or we tried to do this and we tried to do more dates, but it didn’t really work. And what they’re saying is we’re trying to add the element of excitement, but without the safety net.

Michael Preston (22:34.839)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (22:53.439)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s right. That’s right. We’re jumping out of planes all the time with no parachute, right? Why isn’t it working? And then they’ll say, and then they’ll say, we’re not compatible. And then they’ll say, maybe this isn’t love, right? And maybe it isn’t, right? And maybe the relationship doesn’t need to stay together. We’re not saying every couple that is together needs to stay together. What we are saying is…

Thomas Westenholz (23:00.886)
And it still doesn’t feel the way good the way it used to.

Thomas Westenholz (23:09.549)
Yes.

Michael Preston (23:21.621)
Doing those things do not immediately equate the feeling of that rush love. And I would say the feeling I get holding my wife’s hand today is so good.

that the feeling I got the very first time pales in comparison to what I have today. Like that was excitement, that was exhilarating. That wasn’t love, right? That wasn’t love, love. Holding her hand today is walking with my love. And that’s very different than the jolt of electricity that I got the first time I held my wife’s hand.

fun feeling, exciting, and I’m glad I had it. But I wouldn’t trade what it is now to have that repeatedly.

Thomas Westenholz (24:09.134)
I

Thomas Westenholz (24:15.512)
Yes.

That’s so important because this is when the starting point is we shouldn’t compare when we say we want to fall back in love or we want to get back to a play to compare to what happened because that was, and I can actually compare it to drug addiction because you know, it’s very interesting to read the neuroscience of what happened when we first fall in love. You know, they even compared it to brains of people who had OCD because we do, there’s the same brain patterns that become very active, which is why you can’t stop thinking about this person.

Michael Preston (24:25.175)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Michael Preston (24:40.449)
Mm.

Thomas Westenholz (24:46.69)
You become temporarily slightly obsessed, right? Because of these chemicals that actually…

Michael Preston (24:49.259)
Yeah, well, I turned into a bit of a lifetime obsession, but that’s alright. I go through, like when I have to go away from work, I go through withdrawals, I’m like, no, give me my love back.

Thomas Westenholz (24:56.5)
What?

But you know what you’re describing so perfectly here in this beautiful example with your wife is really that that’s what we’re trying to get back. Right? When we are asking, can love come back? Part of that question is actually can safety come back? Cause that has got lost. Yeah. And when you feel safe, it, yes, because when we feel safe,

Michael Preston (25:20.085)
Yes, right. can, yes, that’s important.

Thomas Westenholz (25:27.968)
It becomes easy to add excitement on top afterwards, but excitement without safety, we said, sucks because that’s just jumping out of the, it just sucks.

Michael Preston (25:34.071)
It’s totally terrifying. I keep going back to, couldn’t imagine being like, Hey, that guy just jumped out of the airplane with no parachute. That’s, yeah, that’s terrifying. I don’t want to do that. I remember being on the ground that day actually, and watching people jump before us and watched a group jump. So they had tandem jumping, which what we did. And then some, some planes they would run up just for people who are, you know, they’re certified and they could do it on their own.

Thomas Westenholz (25:43.854)
Yes.

Yes.

Michael Preston (26:04.043)
And I remember standing there and watching everybody shoot open and one shoot went flipping through the air and didn’t open and it’s gone. Like it’s, they never found it. But when you let it loose that high, it’s, it’s gone. So it was incorrectly packed and I go, my God, like this, that’s terrifying. But then he has a lollipop and it’s the second shoot, right? And that goes up and catches him. But I couldn’t only imagine the terrifying feeling.

of being up there pulling your shoe and it’s gone. Right. And that’s what people like that experience is what people who are like this listener, as I said, I’ve pulled on that cord so many times. And what I find is the parachutes not opening. My, my partner is not emotionally available and I have been falling and it has only been terrifying and I don’t like it. And the hope is if like,

Is there a way to find that parachute again? Can we do that?

Thomas Westenholz (27:08.344)
Yes. And that is exactly why people feel the love isn’t really there anymore. There’s a beautiful analogy. I really love this analogy because you’re spot on. No, it’s a great analogy, Michael, because it really is, hey, every time I try to pull the parachute, either it didn’t inflate or it wasn’t packed properly. And at some point I realized I can’t count on you. So, you know, I’m going to now take my strategies to be sure that I don’t have to rely on you because that’s too dangerous. But in that,

Michael Preston (27:15.841)
I’m killing it today.

Michael Preston (27:29.943)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (27:37.303)
That’s

Thomas Westenholz (27:38.102)
I feel I’m on my own and free fall, right? And, that’s terrifying and that really sucks. And, and this is why, Hey, we have to basically bring back that both people know that when they jump the parachute is there and I can trust my partner packed it really well, right? They double checked it, they triple checked it. And when I can trust that again, then yes, love start coming back again, right?

Michael Preston (27:42.731)
Yeah. Okay.

Michael Preston (27:55.873)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (28:01.547)
Yes. So I have like you’re, naming a precursor, right? Which is trust, right? Which is predictability, right? I pull here, parachute opens, I’m going to be fine. And I need that sense of security to want to jump again. So I want to, I want to take, and I think we’ve done a really lovely job of holding space for what we’re saying is what you can get back, right? We can’t bring back sparks. We can’t bring back this new love thing. I can’t make your

I can’t do that, but I can bring back a parachute, right? Couples can do that. They can learn to trust each other again, right? And so where this person is coming from, right? I often talk about this like disconnection phase and most people come to our office and they say, we’re just roommates, right? And there are certain things that couples in that roommate phase do.

that maintain that roommate phase. So I do want to name a few of the things that can happen in a relationship, and you might recognize them. And from that phase, there’s two choices for couples, three choices. They get to the brink of we have to get divorced. That’s an option and couples do that. That’s where divorce comes from, is so disconnected. What’s left? Okay, we’re done.

That’s an option. Some people live as roommates for the remainder of their life, right? They go, that’s it. This was their shot and they don’t want to get a divorce, but they maintain a sense of, they have separate lives, separate friends, and they just kind of come and go. And that is an option.

Not really one that I love, but it is an option. And then the third option is to name it and change it. Right. And then to work on bringing them back to a deeper, more connected sense of safety. Right. But what people can often do to keep them in that phase is nobody makes, nobody, nobody makes the first move. Right. Because generally by the time you’ve gotten here, somebody’s made a lot of moves. Right.

Michael Preston (30:19.457)
But if that’s where you are today, if you’re in the roommate phase,

If what you said at the beginning, right? If we always do what we’ve always done, we’ll always get what we’ve always gotten. It won’t change. And so as long as the elephant in the room is avoided, which is what happened to us, right? What happened to our trust? What happened to our relationship? Where did it go? If we can’t begin to name that.

and we just avoid it, right? And we start walking around the elephant and nobody really wants to say anything or do anything about it. If there’s no conversation held about it, there is no way out of it, right?

Thomas Westenholz (31:06.702)
And you know, this is important what you bring up. That’s great. You know, talking about these phases because the roommate phase can even happen to people that do have a pretty good element of safety and trust where they have gone into a habit of purely functioning, right? Where they purely do functional tasks and they will say, no, I do trust my partner. They do have my back, but I don’t feel that it’s a romantic relationship anymore because… Yes.

Michael Preston (31:17.847)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Preston (31:22.455)
Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Michael Preston (31:27.285)
right

Michael Preston (31:31.765)
Yeah. Yeah. They’re really good at like the checklist, the day-to-day stuff, like they’re really good at planning. I think, think one couple came into my office one time and they started off, said, the hard thing is, is on paper, we should look like an incredible couple. We don’t argue about finances. We get on about that. We both have a similar view on parenting. Like all of these boxes they could check, right? And they said, so on paper, it, people look at us and they’re like, how could you not be happy? No, they’re functioning, high functioning, right? And they can.

Thomas Westenholz (31:42.882)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (31:50.222)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (31:55.788)
Yeah, because they’re functioning, right? They’re functioning well.

Michael Preston (31:59.713)
They don’t even have a lot of arguments around a lot of these things.

Thomas Westenholz (32:02.072)
That’s right. That’s right. And they often feel, hey, we do things quite well together. Like you said, we might not even have heated arguments, but somehow something doesn’t feel right because that’s it. We are just functioning, right? There hasn’t been a sense of we are flourishing together, right? And this is where it’s so important. And we talked about this a bit before about knowing our priorities because over time, priorities will drift towards a certain direction and path, right?

Michael Preston (32:06.07)
Hmm?

Michael Preston (32:16.119)
Hmm.

That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (32:31.054)
It, might drive for a little bit on the motorway and that’s fine. You can turn around, but if you drive on that same path for two or three days, you get quite far away. Right. So this is why again, being able to realize what are my priorities and often what happens is after that initial, or we are in love phase, we slowly start depoliticizing this partner, right? Who’s just there. And we start prioritizing everything else that could be work. could be.

You know, kids, could be whatever it might be. And in that choice, that sends a signal as well, right? A continuous signals, as we said, sent over and over again, eventually becomes big, right? Even if it’s a small signal in the beginning. So that signal of de-prioritizing over time will start creating a disconnect. Even if you’re high functioning and do really good things together, don’t argue, right? Slowly, you will feel very disconnected. And this is why again,

making sure that there is dedicated space and priority, how you prioritize your time, that there is made time for your partner and that they’re still seen as a romantic partner and not just someone you function with, pay bill, will raise kids with, right? You also have to say outside that, what are our goals together? And I feel that’s really important because what tend to happen, there are certain stages where there often is crisis in a relationship, right? One of them will be when kids, for example, move out of the house, right?

is often a crisis point for when kids come into the world and when they move out the house, a typical crisis points to huge moments in relationships and

Michael Preston (34:00.823)
Two big moments, two big moments. And they’re pivot moments. Most couples are going to feel a drastic drop in relational satisfaction at the birth of the first kids. It is the largest drop in the entire relationship, standard-wise, just across the board. And then there’s a little bit of recovery. It can be.

Thomas Westenholz (34:16.366)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (34:26.047)
And then, and then there’s kind of this up and down bit for the teenage years and adding more kids and then things get busy. And then the moment we’re empty nesting, this is the big fork, right? If you across all relationships, the big fork is when you move towards empty nest and couples tend to either address their relationship and improve. And if they address their relationship and rekindle their friendship and move back,

Actually, a lot of the studies show that the marital satisfaction surpasses that in time of the day they got married. But if they don’t, it drops off and doesn’t stop. It doesn’t stop falling if we don’t address it. Like the elephant can’t just live in the room. People get more and more sad and more and more separated and more more depressed the longer they go without naming the.

thing that’s happening, which is we have lost each other and we want to find each other again. Right. I got to move this conversation on so we can stay on target with our time, right? Because there are warning signs beforehand, right? And so the first thing is if you want to rekindle that relationship, I want to make sure we say this clearly. You need to sit down with yourself and say, is that what I want? Cause you got to want it here. If you are this disconnected, you got to want it cause it’s going to take some work. It’s going to take some bumping into each other. It’s going to take getting it wrong.

It’s going to take a couple of arguments, but if you’re going to stick with it, you got to want to, and then you got to check in with your partner if they want to. Hey, this is a really disconnected relationship. Hey, we’re both really lonely. It’s not lost on me. We’re roommates now. I want to work on this. I want to be close to you again. I know that’s a two-way street. I know that’s going to take both of us. I would like to do the work. Do you want to do it as well? Do you want that?

and you both have to be on board here. Yeah. All right. So if you want to start recovering, you’ve got to have the conversation, you’ve got to name it, right? In a collaborative and curious.

Thomas Westenholz (36:37.811)
Are you still there Michael?

Michael Preston (36:39.115)
Yeah, I’m just thinking about the other C word, collaborative, curious and compassionate way. I couldn’t find compassionate for a minute. was like, what is that word? Yeah, if you have to approach it in a collaborative, curious and

Thomas Westenholz (36:54.798)
passionate.

Michael Preston (36:55.287)
compassionate way. Thank you, Thomas.

Thomas Westenholz (36:57.261)
Yes.

Michael Preston (36:59.153)
In, in that space, as you move your relationship back towards connection, you’re going to come into the middle phase, right? Which is we all usually started a pretty connected relationship, but we hit this middle phase and this is where a lot of people live before they get disconnected is it’s this hesitation phase where the love is still there, but the ability to address issues that are coming up is fading because they’re starting to get into arguments. Right? And so this is a couple where the busyness of life.

is starting to get in the way. But there’s enough benefit of the doubt that we would say something like, we’ll get through this. It’s just this season. It’s just, you know, it’s all that’s, it’s just the new promotion or it’s just the new kid. It’s just the this, it’s just the that. We will get better.

Thomas Westenholz (37:48.588)
What’s really interesting in this, Michael, and then I’ll send it back to you because I know it’s fascinating when you talk about these phases, I feel this is often the phase where it start becoming a bit more dangerous to risk. This is where, you know, if I reach for physical contact or whatever it might be, the chance of getting a rejection becomes a bit bigger. So that means I now start hesitating a bit more, right? Taking that risk that start creating the gap, right? Often unspoken gap.

Michael Preston (38:00.268)
That’s it.

Michael Preston (38:10.699)
That’s it.

Michael Preston (38:14.847)
Right. Yep. Yep. Absolutely. Right. The very beginning of this phase is a lot of excuse making, but like this positive way of viewing the distance, which is it’s just a thing. It will recover, but oftentimes without talking about it, it doesn’t recover. Like if we, if we don’t go to our partner and say, Hey, we’re, looks like we’re getting really busy. I want to make time for us. Like let’s, let’s us engage in that conversation.

But if we don’t, if we’re not able to do that, it moves further down the line. And as it gets worse, it goes right to, which is I have tried. It’s not working and it’s too risky to keep doing it. I’ve reached to my partner and she rolled over. I tried to ask for a date night and he planned nothing. Right. And then it becomes the narrative starts to shift to my partner isn’t interested in me. They just don’t care. Right. It’s not the busy-ness of life anymore. It’s the other person.

Thomas Westenholz (39:14.262)
don’t matter. I’m not important enough, right? And when that becomes a narrative, then we start protecting, right? And of course, yes.

Michael Preston (39:15.061)
I don’t matter.

Then we start protecting, then we start, and that ushers us into, if that stays, if we don’t address that, if we don’t find a way through that, couples go to disconnection phase, right? That’s how they end up roommates. It’s not like one day they woke up in their roommates. It’s this continuum, right? Where we got busy and we never addressed it, but it was okay because we could blame the busyness, but then we never addressed it. And then we tried to address it.

and then it didn’t work. And suddenly the blame goes from busy-ness to my partner. And then suddenly I feel rejected and unimportant and they don’t care. And then that becomes the narrative that defines the relationship. And then that stays and we can’t find a way out of that place. And then we go into disconnection where nobody’s trying anymore.

Thomas Westenholz (39:59.992)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (40:07.054)
And that’s the thing that often in these relationships in this stage, the underlying emotions are not talked about. We might say, hey, we’re busy because the kids have come about, but we don’t talk about, hey, but I still felt really rejected the other night when for the 10th time I put my hand on you and you pushed it away. Right? So that’s often is not spoken out. Right? So the other person is stuck alone with this and eventually adjust their behavior to try and minimize disappointment and hurt.

Michael Preston (40:13.11)
a threat.

Michael Preston (40:22.999)
Yeah. We don’t mention it.

Thomas Westenholz (40:34.838)
and getting this message, I’m not wanted, I don’t matter, whatever it might be, right? Then of course we have to start protection and as soon as we go into protection then we start getting into trouble.

Michael Preston (40:45.591)
That’s right. Yeah. And that’s the danger that most couples are facing, right? And what I want to say here, right as we end the show here, there is a way back, but it’s what securely attached couples do, right? Which is they have the conversation, they take the risk, they name the thing and they do it in an open way with their partner, not a blaming way. They come and their partner responds, right?

When I reach for you and you respond to me, then I can build trust and safety. Right. And so we should probably spend some more time talking about reaching and responding. That’s really important, but what secure couples do, there’s two principles that I find super important when it comes to communicating and all of these things that drive the wedges. And I can’t remember if it’s, my, my two favorite Rogers, right? Carl Rogers or Mr. Rogers, who said this.

But it’s one of the two, which is fine because Mr. Raj and Carl Rogers, they’re both like genius humanist, right? They just, they really deeply believe in people, but they said, whatever isn’t mentionable, isn’t manageable. Right? If the relationship can’t mention it, the relationship can’t manage it. And if they can’t manage it, it’s going to drive a wedge and you’re going to move towards disconnection. Right? We have to mention it. The other principle that I speak about a lot is that

Clear is kind. Sending a clear message to your partner is the kindest. Even clear is hard at times, but it’s way kinder to be clear than it is to be shrouded in mystery and blame and criticism. So that’s what couples who are working on getting that love back, that’s what they come to us to do. They come to us to learn how to mention these things with each other in a clear and kind way so they can

begin to put that parachute back on, to speak, right? And start doing those things, but doing them in a way like they’re doing the date night and the date night feels better, right? And then things like…

Michael Preston (42:58.451)
know, a couple of the calling when I’m late for work thing happens a lot, right? And then you find partners start calling and they say, Hey, I’m running late at work. And it means a lot and it’s pretty consistent. And then they come home and they’re engaged in all these things. And so trust is there and then they forget to call and the partner goes, but that’s okay. Because I don’t now think you don’t care about me. I think you got caught up in a meeting. It shifts the way I experienced even a bad thing that brought me into therapy.

Thomas Westenholz (43:21.196)
Yes.

Michael Preston (43:25.843)
It now shifts how I experience it from he doesn’t care. He doesn’t care to he probably got caught up in a meeting.

Thomas Westenholz (43:34.006)
Yes. And you know, this is because you mentioned secure attached couples, right? And how they can navigate this. And this is a big piece of it that you mentioned now is that they tend to have positive anticipations, right? While the pursuer often will anticipate, he will not be there. So therefore I’m going to turn up the volume because he will listen, right? And the other person anticipate, I’m going to get it wrong anyway, or I will be blamed or criticized.

Michael Preston (43:45.643)
That’s right. That’s right.

Michael Preston (43:50.335)
Mm-hmm.

That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (44:00.418)
So they say, I’m going to get away from this because that feels really horrible. The fact is that secure couples tend to anticipate a positive response and they anticipate the best in their partner. As you just said, they anticipate that probably is a good reason. They wouldn’t go straight to the narrative or they don’t care about me. They would probably go to the narrative. my partner’s mobile phone might ran out of battery. So they will have an interpretation that is not about them.

Michael Preston (44:22.198)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Thomas Westenholz (44:26.07)
or people not wanting to respond to them because they anticipate the world in general is kind and want to respond to them, right? And when we, and of course it’s hard that we never had a framework for how this looks like, but that is a basis of why they’re able to resolve conflicts quite easily because they have a positive expectation and interpretations of the events that happen, right? They don’t feel bad about themselves if they made a mistake. That makes it easier to hear when your partner isn’t happy about something, right?

Michael Preston (44:31.319)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (44:54.59)
Absolutely.

Thomas Westenholz (44:55.21)
And, and, know, I can relate to this because that’s part of my framework that I was lucky to get that if my partner said, Thomas, you didn’t do this so well. I really don’t feel there’s anything wrong with me as a person. I just realized, yeah, I probably did mess that up. forgot to do that. That’s true. But that makes it easier to receive. But if the message was, I’m a bad person, then of course I’m not going to be able to hear that. Then I’m going to go back and say, well, you didn’t tell me or whatever it is. I have to protect my sense of self, right?

Michael Preston (45:08.843)
Yeah.

Michael Preston (45:21.015)
That’s

Thomas Westenholz (45:24.588)
And this is why for these conversations to work, we also have to get to a place, as you’re saying, we often help people in therapy where they start having a positive expectation of outcome. Cause when we expect something dangerous will happen, we’re never going to be receptive to the message, whatever that message is, right?

Michael Preston (45:35.297)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (45:39.927)
Yeah, absolutely. Well, listen, let’s leave it on that. That’s really wonderfully said. Thank you all for tuning in today. We look forward to continuing this journey with you and we’ll catch you next week. All right, bye Thomas.