Navigating Couples Therapy Resistance

Thomas Westenholz (00:15.285)
So welcome back to another episode with the Couple in Focus. We’ve got Michael here and of course me, Thomas, hosting the show and it’s great to have you all back for another episode. And yeah, we’ve been looking at questions coming in and what seemed to be quite prominent and also I think is common for both of us in our practice is this idea of one person really wanting to go to couples therapy.

Michael Preston (00:40.269)
Hmm.

Thomas Westenholz (00:40.491)
And the other person feeling that therapy might not really be what they want to do, right? And maybe it’s even quite resistance to it. And I guess a big thing is then what do I do if I’m in this place where I really want to try and do couples therapy? There’s a lot of things that’s not really working in this relationship, but my partner just is really resistance. Like where do people start?

Michael Preston (01:04.662)
Yep. Generally speaking, that’s how everybody shows up. That’s there’s when I hear two people that show up and they’re both like, yeah, we were both really excited about this. Like that’s, that doesn’t happen. I mean, it’s happened, but it just doesn’t happen. Right? That’s, that’s not how that works. But I, it’s so important because I think there are a lot of people and a lot of relationships that

there begins to grow this distance that at least one partner, right? That distance is going to be more distressing, but also they become aware of the distance a lot earlier than their other partner. Right? So they start becoming more and more unhappy and it’s not uncommon for one partner to say, Hey, I’m

Like, I’m unhappy because it feels like we’re so distant. And the other partner to go, really? Like, I had no idea. But I thought everything was great. And that can be a very, very different and jarring response for the person who’s going, how can this be great for you? How can this be okay? Right? Because that’s just a very different way of experiencing the relationship. And then how do we broach the idea of like, I want to go to therapy. And then their partner goes,

Thomas Westenholz (02:14.361)
Yes.

Michael Preston (02:35.116)
Why would we do that? Like, I don’t want to do that. I don’t want to go talk to some stranger. Yeah. Yeah. I think this is a really important topic.

Thomas Westenholz (02:38.115)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (02:43.821)
And you know, at least for me, and I presume it’s probably similar for you, very often it’s the woman that kind of reached out or had told the husband that they need to go now or the relationship is over and then the husband might look out and look for somebody, right? That is, I’m not saying this is again, it’s not about gender, but in many cases that, and I even say there’s an element of attachment style in this too. Again, it’s not all about attachment styles, but very often I think the more anxious pursuer

who is in a lot of distress and then get more more angry and eventually maybe start giving up, they tend to be more likely to be the one saying, let’s try and go to therapy. While the more withdrawal person who kind of is more self-reliant on their own regulation, they can also deal better with the disconnect, right? Because that’s how they learn to survive, basically. That’s what they had to do most of their childhood. So they tend to not as often, at least I find, be the one who reached out until…

there come this fracture point where one person might say, hey, if we don’t go to therapy, the relationship is over. Then they might, you know, take some initiative to reach out for it. Right. But it can be very difficult to try and get a partner into therapy who might not believe that therapy is working or valid, because why would people want to invest time and money in something they don’t think will actually help them? Right. So that resistance is quite valid, really.

Michael Preston (03:48.664)
Yep. Yeah.

Michael Preston (04:01.998)
That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (04:05.601)
And if you have gotten used to a world where people don’t respond to you, don’t validate you, why would you want to go to therapy and pay money to have that experience again? Like personally, I wouldn’t want to pay for that. Right. So if that’s your anticipation of therapy, I just want to validate that it makes a lot of sense that there’s resistance to therapy. Right. And I often feel a lot of compassion for the people coming in. Most of the time it’s men who come in and you can see they don’t really want to be there. Right.

Michael Preston (04:16.973)
No!

Michael Preston (04:34.102)
No, no, especially right. Well, what you’re, what’s really important about what you’re doing, right. Which is so important on this show is I’m going to say it. I’ll say every episode, which is everything makes sense if we’re willing to seek understanding and be curious, everything. so resistance to therapy, which to a partner is going to come across as they don’t care about the relationship. Right. If we really sit with that, that resistance is often really well founded.

in the partner who’s resisting. There’s usually good reason. And the good reason could be terrible experience in therapy before. There’s plenty of bad therapists out there. It can be that they knew someone who went to therapy and it didn’t help and they spent 10 grand and still ended up before it, like whatever it is, right? They have this model of what it means to go to therapy. And they’re just acting on that model. And you go, okay, that begins to make

more sense to me.

Thomas Westenholz (05:37.217)
And you know, for somebody who maybe never had an experience of being understood and validated, of course they’re not going to go into this thinking, yeah, that’s suddenly going to happen now after 40 years of never having this happen in my life. Right. So for them, it can often be a very almost cathartic experience when they come into therapy and slowly. And what is fascinating is what I’ve seen is that resistance slowly then moves away as they start having these experiences in therapy. Right. But

Michael Preston (05:49.88)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (05:55.011)
Yeah.

Thomas Westenholz (06:06.561)
Again, as you said, and I said, it makes so much sense that there are resistance to it because they don’t see a positive outcome is even possible. So that’s often.

Michael Preston (06:13.462)
Right. If their history says exposing myself in any way leads to being let down, hurt, making a problem worse, why would they think going to therapy would be a helpful thing?

Thomas Westenholz (06:29.909)
Exactly. And the reason I cannot start with this compassionate lens and you’re right, we try to bring it into every podcast. The reason I start with that, level of understanding for the person who often, you know, our resistance to coming in is that that can help us how we address when we start engaging and trying to get this person to come with us to couples therapy. If we come and attack them with our own narrative, they’re probably likely to just become more resistance because to them, that’s just, again, another signal I’m not really understood, right?

Michael Preston (06:48.686)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Preston (06:57.346)
That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (06:58.295)
So they then, of course, are going to shut down even more and we resist. If something can only have a negative outcome, then of course we’re going to resist it. That just makes human sense, right? So, so I think it’s really when we can put on this compassionate lens and it is hard because often the other partner of course is in distress as well, right? It might be angry and saying, he haven’t responded to me in many years. I’m angry. I’m tired of this. However,

Michael Preston (07:07.668)
It makes complete sense.

Thomas Westenholz (07:24.407)
We do have to somehow put on a compassionate lens to try and get people to collaborate with things, right? It’s very difficult to get a positive outcome purely through forcing other people, right? I think we’ve seen enough empires collapse to know that that model doesn’t work very well.

Michael Preston (07:35.299)
Hmm.

Michael Preston (07:38.574)
So let me, I love this example because Apple is really good at doing what you’re, what you’re, what you’re naming. as a company, if you take your computer, your device into Apple store and you say there’s a problem with my device. Okay. The, the, are trained to begin with acknowledgement. And what they’ll say is, I mean, it’s, it’s brilliant.

And they’ll go, let me make sure I understand the issue. When you hit the power button, your computer does this. then customer goes, yes, that, that is what’s happening. And then they’re trained to empathize. And the next thing out of their mouth should be, that would be really frustrating if that would keep happening. And the customer goes, it, it is really frustrating. Thank you. And they said,

I want you to know I’m going to work with you to figure out what’s happening to your product. So all of that sets up because they know generally speaking, I’m going to have to send this person’s device away and it’s probably going to be gone for three weeks and they’re going to be really unhappy about that, but they’re going to be way more likely to comply when they believe, when they, when they feel believed, when they feel compassion about the problem.

Thomas Westenholz (08:55.299)
Yeah.

Michael Preston (09:07.01)
and they feel I’m on their team and figuring it out. And then when I have to deliver the bad news, right, which is, you’re going to need a new this and we kind of send it like, we have to send that away. I am so sorry. I know that can be really frustrating. Like they just do that. They massage that into the conversation. And generally speaking, they have a lot less resistance when the answer is it doesn’t look great. So that acknowledgement first is so important. And I think Apple does that really well. And I think it.

Thomas Westenholz (09:33.411)
There we go.

Michael Preston (09:35.656)
I think it’s part of why people love to go to Apple. no, we’re not sponsored, but we’d love to be. Okay.

Thomas Westenholz (09:36.665)
By the way, we are not sponsored by Apple.

Thomas Westenholz (09:44.793)
But you’re right, it’s a good framework, right? So I’m totally hearing the point here, which is that you’re saying starting out by, and again, it’s very difficult if the other person is in distress, but trying to acknowledge the fact of why there is this resistance. Because if we try to push or force it through or threaten our way through, which often is the case, right? It might be, we’re done if we don’t go to couples therapy, then yes, they might end up going with you out of fear of losing you.

Michael Preston (09:48.63)
It’s a great framework, It’s so important.

Michael Preston (10:09.006)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (10:13.154)
That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (10:13.987)
However, doesn’t mean there’s collaboration or willingness to be there and engaging in the process, right? So we get the best results if somebody shows up and somehow want to engage. And I think that’s what you’re explaining really well with this example. How do we get people to want to collaborate? And for that to happen as human beings, we have to be able to see a benefit. We are not going to go into something that can only be painful for us and want to collaborate in that, right?

Michael Preston (10:36.11)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (10:41.837)
That would be counter-organism in my own term, right?

Michael Preston (10:41.87)
Okay. Absolutely. Like it wouldn’t, it wouldn’t, like it wouldn’t benefit me. So, so I want to slow down there because this is really, really important because what we’re naming here, right. And you, you, you tell me if you disagree, but when someone is unhappy, oftentimes the way they try to tell their partner about that is when things go awry and it comes out in an argument.

Thomas Westenholz (10:48.151)
Yes.

Michael Preston (11:11.756)
and they say something like, I’m just so unhappy in this relationship. And, and, and it’s ever going to get their partner to enlist in helping you with the unhappiness because when a partner, well, before I go there, it, would you agree with that? Okay. That’s often the case. So then the next part is if I come to my partner and I say,

Thomas Westenholz (11:30.977)
Yeah, I think that’s often the case. That’s right.

Michael Preston (11:39.124)
I am so unhappy, even if I say that kind of softly, but like I’m so unhappy in this relationship. I know what, what, the meaning I know that people usually make of that moment, right? When one partner says, I’m so unhappy in this relationship, what do you, what do you know as the meaning, the normal meaning the other person’s going to make in that moment?

Thomas Westenholz (11:59.843)
Well, they might say, something is wrong with me.

Michael Preston (12:02.146)
Yeah. Yeah. I’m on what they fill in the gap, right? The gap that we talked about in our other episode and the end of that sentence that we, nobody said this, right? Maybe, maybe, and sometimes they do, but if you go to your partner and you say, I’m unhappy in this relationship period, and it’s got any kind of heat to it or what your partner is likely going to fill in for the rest of that sentence is, and it’s your fault.

Thomas Westenholz (12:05.657)
Yes, that’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (12:29.389)
Yes, I failed. I can’t get it right as a partner.

Michael Preston (12:32.65)
And suddenly that’s when they get resistance. It’s because they’re trying to prove, I’m not bad. I didn’t fail you. That’s right. Because could you imagine turning them and saying, yeah, I understand why I’m pretty terrible at this. But that’s what’s happening to them, right? That’s what’s happening.

Thomas Westenholz (12:35.458)
Of course.

Thomas Westenholz (12:39.545)
That’s right. either have to push, that’s right. They have to push back now, right? To protect the sense of self, their own identity.

Thomas Westenholz (12:51.179)
Yeah, that’s right. Or they pull away more and that’s not how you get someone to engage and move forward, right? You need forward momentum. That’s obviously going to create shame and shame does the opposite. Shame shuts down, right? So you can’t mobilize someone through shame. That’s what we also know. I know you used to work with alcoholics, right? And we know that they don’t…

Michael Preston (12:58.552)
That’s right. That’s right.

Michael Preston (13:06.018)
James shuts us down.

Thomas Westenholz (13:14.809)
improve through shame, for saying, I can’t believe you did that again. That’s so bad. That doesn’t make them change the behavior, right? Same with drug addicts. Actually, it makes it worse. We have to meet them again with compassion and say, you know, we get you had a really, really hard moment and da da da and slipped. So the fact is the same here. The only way to try getting somebody to collaborate is through compassion, right? And shame will do the complete opposite. It’ll make it harder. Threats can create

Michael Preston (13:18.338)
Nope. Nope. Absolutely.

Thomas Westenholz (13:42.563)
can create short-term compliance, but that’s not the same as willingness to want to be there, right? And if we really want a good outcome, we need willingness to want to be there, to engage in a process. And that’s why I say, fresh doesn’t work. Shame doesn’t work. And I get, also want to have compassion for maybe the more anxious pursuer, because of course I also get that when we have built up this frustration for, I don’t know, maybe many years, then it’s really hard to sit and feel compassion.

Michael Preston (13:52.718)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (13:57.453)
It doesn’t.

Thomas Westenholz (14:10.275)
for this other person, because we are raging inside, you know, we have all this that needs to come out. So it’s much easier to come and say, you’ve done this and you’re making me unhappy and it’s your fault. And you have to now find a therapist and that, that, that, and then maybe very religiously, they will come and try and speak to you and say, my wife wants us to go to therapy, but you can sense they don’t really want to be there, right?

Michael Preston (14:10.474)
It is. It is.

Michael Preston (14:26.808)
Right. Right.

That’s right. That’s right. So, so we want to start by saying approaching this topic can be really, really difficult because even by naming your unhappiness, your partner can hear the message. You make me unhappy. then, and then we aren’t going to, that’s not going to be forward motion. Right. And so even in how we begin, this conversation is so important. Right.

Thomas Westenholz (14:49.113)
I am salty the really might be a

Michael Preston (15:00.568)
coming to our partner and talking about what’s happening in the relationship. And this is where therapy is so helpful because we want to help hold a space and understand the way things are impacting both people, which can be really hard in a relationship.

But if I can offer even a piece of advice here, if there is someone listening who says, I am unhappy and I just, don’t even know how to approach that subject. Right.

It can be helpful to even name that with your partner, right? To be able to go to your partner and say, can we talk about our relationship?

I want to name how I’m feeling and I want you to know before I even go into it, I’m not blaming you and I don’t think this is your fault. But I think that we have both contributed to an unhappy and disconnected or whatever the issue you have relationship, right?

Thomas Westenholz (16:15.993)
Yes.

Michael Preston (16:17.614)
And I want to figure out a way for both of us to enjoy this relationship.

Thomas Westenholz (16:26.839)
Yes. And that’s important what you’re saying, right? Cause what you’re saying is, Hey, we kind of highlighted here, what is normally the main fear of the other person and their interpretation. And by knowing that we can now address it in a new way. Cause just like you said, the example with Apple, can address what we know their fundamental fear is that, I’m faulty. I’m a failure. And we can, like you said, say, this is not about you. This is about us. And I want us to get better.

Michael Preston (16:52.696)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (16:54.967)
And it’s nobody’s fault. Then we almost de-arm the landmine. A shame is like a landmine waiting to explode, right? It’s kind of with the arm, we say, okay, we pull out the pin here so it can’t explode. Right? And you do that in that statement you just did there, right? Because you address what we know is their fear. And now they don’t have to shut down. That means there can be forward motion, right? And it also, yeah, maybe, yes. But it creates a potential at least, because nobody’s going to go step on a landmine, right?

Michael Preston (17:00.93)
Yeah, absolutely.

Michael Preston (17:17.57)
Maybe,

That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (17:24.534)
So we first have to disarm the landmine for them to be any chance of walking into this field. So that statement kind of helped disarm that. then there’s also just the, and I can’t remember, we talked about this on another podcast, but this how we use you versus I way of communicating, right? Because when we go in and of course we often do this when we’re distressed, we go in and maybe say, you did this, you’re always late. I’m sick of the way you don’t show me any affection. It’s you, you, it’s accusations, it’s criticism.

Michael Preston (17:39.138)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Michael Preston (17:50.264)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Usually, usually that’s the conversation with therapy comes up on the heels of that. Right. That’s, and that is a massive reason why it is so, so hard because often people will say, we’re just going to go to therapy so you can yell at me in front of somebody else. Right.

Thomas Westenholz (17:57.485)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (18:07.307)
Yes. Yes. Or make me feel that I’m wrong in front of them. Right. And of course that’s not going to be willingness for that. Right. Nobody wants. Yes.

Michael Preston (18:11.544)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (18:15.372)
Yeah. And what if the therapist agrees with my partner, right? That I am the problem. And now I’ve got two people telling me I’m the problem. That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (18:21.165)
saying that I’m that problem, which validate my fear that I’m faulty that I write. So exactly. this is why if we can even change and it makes such a difference because the traditional use statements will always activate. We refer to amygdala, right? Which is part of the fear response. And that means again, when that is activated, the responses we have are very limited. We don’t have much we can do. We can fight back or we can shut down, right? Or we can just collapse, et cetera, or we can try and please, but there’s not much options here left.

Michael Preston (18:25.464)
So, yeah.

Thomas Westenholz (18:50.617)
When we instead, like you did in your example, start focusing on the eye, I feel really, you know, that we are more disconnected and I really miss feeling connected again. And I want us to have a better relationship. I want to figure this out together. And it would be really important to me if we can try and go to a therapist who can help us figure out why we are somehow missing each other. Yeah. This doesn’t again, push that blame onto one person.

Michael Preston (19:05.71)
That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (19:18.027)
So they don’t have to go into a fear response. Instead, we can now activate more empathetic response, right? If you explain the impact it’s having, if you say instead, hey, actually, I’m really sad because I miss how we were really connected. I really want that. And somehow we lost that along the way. And I crave that so much. That’s more likely to have an empathetic response together with what you said, making clear, addressing their fear, saying, hey, this is not about you. You haven’t caused this.

We somehow ended up here.

Michael Preston (19:49.006)
That’s right. think, I think, you know, when I don’t even, I don’t, I don’t really, there are times that I like I statements, but I really like we statements more than anything in these conversations. Like somehow we ended up in this place. Right. And I know I feel more disconnected. I don’t know how you feel. And that’s part of feeling disconnected.

Thomas Westenholz (20:07.48)
Yes.

Michael Preston (20:17.654)
is because I don’t know how you feel. And I don’t want to continue not to know. So we’re inviting our partner not to say, you make me unhappy, but to say, I really want to know you. And when I don’t know you, I feel disconnected. And when I feel disconnected to you, that makes me feel like I’m unhappy about that. Right? And I want to change that. And the thing that I want to change isn’t that you make me happy,

Thomas Westenholz (20:17.945)
Yeah.

Thomas Westenholz (20:41.838)
Yes.

Michael Preston (20:47.308)
I want to find a way to be connected again.

And then, right, once we kind of can set that up a bit, right, notice the approach here isn’t on the heels of an argument or as a threat, right? All of those strategies, which are more damaging than they are helpful. Although I will say, well, I’ll talk about something in a minute here when it’s like, well, that happens when nothing happens, right? But we’ll get there in a second. But the approach that we’re offering here is to come in and really actually be still in your own body first. Right.

Like check your own reactivity here and ask yourself, where am I in this relationship? And do I know where my partner is? And oftentimes it’s not knowing where your partner is, right? It’s the not knowing that goes, that’s the thing that makes me feel disconnected when I don’t know where they are because we’re not having the same conversation, right? A new relationship. We talked, we dressed up for each other. We

Thomas Westenholz (21:37.145)
Yes. Yeah.

Michael Preston (21:47.032)
complimented each other, we shared with each other, and then suddenly here we are one year, 10 years, 12 years later, two kids later, whatever it is, and we’re not doing those things anymore. And I don’t know where my partner is. And when I don’t know where my partner is, that does not feel good to me. And so that would be the first thing I would ask you to do is to take some time and really sit with that and use that language for kind of

charting out your own, right? Write it down, do some journaling. This is a really lovely spot to do that so that you can get more clear. Because as we say on this podcast, clear is kind, right? And I didn’t invent that, but I’d like to steal it. So clear is kind, right? And so the other thing, the next part of it is how do we begin to introduce the topic of counseling? Yeah. thank you. I appreciate that.

Thomas Westenholz (22:36.569)
you actually said something really important, I just quickly want to touch on. That’s how to do it. But you said that timing, you talked about timing as well in there and timing is so important. I even remember a long time ago reading a business book where they found out a big study at Harvard where they found out that timing was a key factor between success and failure.

Michael Preston (22:43.932)
HAHAHAHA

Thomas Westenholz (23:04.279)
And I think timing has a huge impact as well in how we time when we bring this message across. Cause you’re spot on if we do it right at the peak of an argument, if we do it when the other person come home and maybe a really stressed, had a really rubbish day, right? Then it’s not likely to have a good reception. If we do it exactly, if we do it in, and it might even be rare if couples are in a lot of distress, but if we find a moment where at least we have less distress,

Michael Preston (23:04.469)
yeah.

Michael Preston (23:22.67)
It’s not.

Thomas Westenholz (23:30.657)
maybe even have a small level of something positive experienced together. That’s a good time to start engaging with topics, right? Because again, there’s more capacity to hear each other when we’re in that place than when we’re in a stressful moment.

Michael Preston (23:43.864)
That’s right. So I think even naming what you’re naming right there is really important because, and I’m going to stop pulling on this thread in just a second.

because oftentimes people are gonna say, but I go to my partner and I say, hey, can we talk? And right there, when I’m asking that question, what I’m saying is right now is a good time for me to talk to you, right? And it may not be a good time for your partner, right? Maybe they just got home. Maybe they’re in the middle of reading something, some article and they don’t want, like they’re not ready to shift out of that yet, right? And we can invite the partner to say, hey, is this a good time for you? And they say, yeah, give me a minute.

Thomas Westenholz (24:06.668)
Yes.

Michael Preston (24:25.134)
Okay. I’m happy to give you a minute. Will you please let me know when you’re ready? Right. So we invite them to be collaborative in the timing of the conversation as well. Right. That’s so it’s massive. Right. So we’re to say this really clearly because I want to be as clear as I can about this. If the topic of unhappiness and counseling is coming up on the heels of an argument or in the middle of an argument, or just as we start ramping up, it is going to fail. Period. Like

There, is very, very rare for that to go well. So what we’re saying is the first thing you got to do is get clear in yourself about how this is a problem that we are facing and what is happening to you when there’s distance in the relationship and finding a good time to begin talking about this when there isn’t a heated moment and we’ve just had an argument. and.

you know, that’s likely to fail, but to find a time together to sit and say, there are concerns I have about our relationship and my experience of it. And I can imagine you may have your own concerns and I’m open to hearing about those. And can we begin talking about our relationship in a productive way? Because when we aren’t talking about us, it’s really hard for me, right?

Thomas Westenholz (25:47.597)
That’s That’s it. And I think that’s spot on. The only thing I would add on top as well is the fact of focusing on a positive outcome. Because again, as humans being, we are only motivated to move towards something that, yes, exactly. So that’s important. Instead of going in with this, and we talked about it already, or you’re in the wrong, nobody wants to come if they think the outcome is that they’re going to sit there and be criticized by a therapist and their partner. But if they can see that there could be a positive outcome, right?

Michael Preston (25:58.924)
Yeah. We want something better. Right.

Michael Preston (26:13.783)
Absolutely.

Thomas Westenholz (26:16.825)
and say, I want us to feel how we felt when we first met. Remember how we laughed a lot, how we enjoyed our sex life, how we felt connected. That’s what I crave for us to find again. That is now a positive incentive for somebody to move toward because they can say, yeah, that felt really good. Right. And now we are incentivized towards action and moving toward things that can have a positive outcome for us. Right. So that gives a sense of motivation, exactly because

Michael Preston (26:22.604)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Michael Preston (26:34.22)
Right. Right.

Michael Preston (26:41.749)
I like that, that’s really important.

Thomas Westenholz (26:44.653)
We do need a bit of dopamine. The dopamine system have to come online. Otherwise we don’t take action. That’s just how we are wired. Right. And this gives the dopamine a little hit to say there is this positive outcome that’s possible. Right. And that helped motivate action.

Michael Preston (26:59.534)
Yep. And so I, yeah, I think that’s really important. And I’ll pause it there. And I’m going to move on to the next part, which is how do we, how do we bring up therapy? Right. Cause that’s a hard part. So, so we’ve, we’ve, we’ve come in, we’ve tried to as compassionate as we can. And I’m not saying if you do everything we said, if you write down word for word and shape it to your relationship, then it’s going to be perfect and your partner is going to receive it and everything’s going to be good. Right. We’re just saying this is the most.

successful way you can go about trying to set this up and your partner might still go, I don’t care. Right, like that could still happen. It still doesn’t mean it’s gonna be perfect and we can talk about that in a second. But how do we broach the subject of therapy? And I wanna use a word that we’ve said already on the show, which is therapy, if you wanna be successful here.

I would approach it collaboratively, right? Which is I’ve introduced the topic, my partner seems at least somewhat receptive. Like they’re able to say like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I’ve kind of noticed, you know, we’ve let something go and, know, and look, if you’re a female partner, we’re, you know, speaking to generalities here, you know, and you want your husband to listen, your partner to listen. And you say, you know, and I’d really like to get back to that,

You know, we had more regular sex at the beginning of our relationship. You’ve caught their attention, right? Now you’re like, okay, wait a second. You’re right. We have had less sex and that would be really great to fix, right? So great. If that’s an incentive, make that happen. But let’s say they bite, right? They bite and they’re in the conversation.

If you are thinking that therapy is what you want to do, you want to try, offer that, right? But approach it collaboratively. So what I’m, what I’m saying here is you can offer your partner. I don’t know what we really need here. And maybe I don’t know how to get that back. And when I don’t know, I think maybe we can get help. You know, maybe a therapist would be helpful.

Michael Preston (29:07.348)
in finding our way back to a really connected and fun relationship that we both enjoy, what do you think? Right, so now you’re inviting them not into a directive, but a conversation, right? And you might find your partners resistant. And when we meet resistance,

We get curious, right? If you meet that resistance with, knew you were going to say that, right? Guess what? Off we go into the cycle and into the dance and our great attempt to set this up just ended up in another argument. And you go, and then you go, I tried, I did what you all said. And then he said he didn’t want to go anyways. And it’s like, yeah, okay. Cause he’s resistant.

Thomas Westenholz (29:51.661)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (30:00.18)
is, is.

Michael Preston (30:01.14)
if we meet our partner’s resistance around any topic with some curiosity.

nine times out of 10, that’s going to go much better than responding reactively with, knew you were going to say that. Right? So let me, let me toss it over to you, Thomas. How does that, how does that land with you?

Thomas Westenholz (30:21.591)
No, I think it’s spot on, man. I think it’s spot on. think the thing that came up as you were talking about this was I was trying to, I don’t have avoidant attachment style, but I was trying to imagine being in that place of receiving the message, right? And I know, you know, we both understand this attachment style and avoidance obviously struggle, I think with the word help, because they have learned, no, I don’t need anybody’s help.

Michael Preston (30:34.691)
Mm-hmm.

Thomas Westenholz (30:46.347)
I can do this on my own. I think often there’s an internal resistance to the idea. We don’t need help. I don’t need help. Yeah. I got, I can sort stuff out myself. So, and I’m brainstorming live actually, because this is just came up, right? As I was trying to imagine being in the receiving end, I wonder if there’s a different kind of word and the word help that might be able to kind of move past that resistance that very often come off, right?

Michael Preston (30:58.22)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Thomas Westenholz (31:12.055)
Because a lot of these people would very happily have a coach that helped them with their fitness stuff, Or whatever it might be.

Michael Preston (31:17.25)
Yes, and they’ll take their they take their car to the mechanic.

Thomas Westenholz (31:21.005)
Yes, but anything that makes them feel that they are faulty or broken or something is wrong with them and they need help will be met with resistance. And I think often the therapist and help straight away can send that message to their nervous system, right? Or I need fixing, right? You think something is wrong. That’s it. That’s it. And understanding that we can already see for this empathetic lens that that would bring up resistance, right?

Michael Preston (31:35.287)
immediately. That’s right. Something’s broken with me. Something’s wrong with me.

Thomas Westenholz (31:48.121)
Because it’s like, I don’t want to be fixed and I don’t want somebody to say, so yeah, I’m just wondering, maybe there are some other kind of terminology or words that can be used and say, hey, I really would be great to have someone who can guide us back on track. Or I don’t know, like I said, this is, I’m just brainstorming live some different words that doesn’t trigger that primal fear that obviously is very often in the more wide role, hesitant partner.

Michael Preston (32:06.21)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Thomas Westenholz (32:15.683)
who doesn’t want to feel something is wrong, who doesn’t want to feel they need help from other people. But they are often open to guidance. Often, it’s interesting when they come in, they will often say, when I talk about the goals of therapy, they will say, I’m hoping that we get some kind of advice or something, that you have some advice of what I can do, things like that. And that will often be what they say. So yeah, maybe there’s something around the terminology that could slightly be changed to have a different

Michael Preston (32:35.832)
That’s right. Yeah.

Thomas Westenholz (32:44.959)
outcome or response. I’m actually going to ponder on this and maybe we can post some comments under our video when we come up with some new words that people can use.

Michael Preston (32:48.738)
Yeah, no, no, it’s a good point.

Yeah. So I, you know, I I would offer in a, in a curious place, right.

Michael Preston (33:03.086)
This is what I about curiosity. I don’t have to find the exact words to make my partner interested. If I can find the resistance, right? So if I said to my partner, what do you think about going to therapy? And they’re like, oh, I don’t want to do that. And my reaction is, okay. Like I’d love to understand why. Right? Not like, I don’t mean like, why not? I literally mean what?

What is coming up for you? And I mentioned that. What, what, what are you thinking? Like, help me understand. Right. And you might hear your partner say, like, why do we need someone to tell us how to love each other? There’s nothing right. Right. Right. And we go, I hear you. Right. Why do we, why do we need to go pay somebody to tell us how to be in a relationship? Why do we need to do that? Why do we need to do that? And that’s, that’s a totally legitimate response. Like what, why do, why do we need that? Right.

Thomas Westenholz (33:40.473)
There’s nothing wrong with us.

Michael Preston (34:00.566)
And so when you hear the resistance again, if you can meet it with compassion, like, yeah, yeah, it does feel weird. It feels weird that we used to be able to do this really well. And why can’t we do it anymore? That’s actually a really good question. I don’t really have a great answer for that. I don’t have a great answer for why we can’t just do it. But what I do have a sense of is that we aren’t doing it.

Thomas Westenholz (34:17.273)
Yes, yes.

Thomas Westenholz (34:30.509)
Yes. And you know what you’re saying is important because before we talked about the state of mind and check in what state of mind your partner is in before bringing this up. But what you’re talking about now is also, you what is the state of mind of you before you bring this up, right? The person who brings because if you’re in a triggered place, you’re not going to be able to communicate like this from a compassionate place, meaning you have to check in also with yourself. Where am I now? Right. In the moment when I want to have this, if you are triggered,

Michael Preston (34:45.518)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (34:49.58)
You can’t do that. You can’t do that.

Michael Preston (34:54.723)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (34:59.363)
don’t start it because there’s zero chance you will be able to have this kind empathy for your partner, right?

Michael Preston (35:00.472)
Your style. Yeah. If you ask yourself that question beforehand, will I be willing to listen to my partner’s resistance and be curious? If you ask yourself that question and the answer is not right now, don’t do this. Don’t do this. Don’t do this. Right? Back up, back up, back up, back up. But if you can position yourself, right? And understand like their resistance isn’t a reflection

Thomas Westenholz (35:09.55)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (35:16.183)
Yes, and don’t start that conversation right now.

Michael Preston (35:30.342)
of their care for the relationship. It’s a reflection of their resistance to wanting to be that exposed. And who wants to be that exposed? Right? I get that. Therapy is a vulnerable process. for our anxious pursuers, they’re asking for vulnerability all the time. they’re like, well, please be vulnerable with me. Share with me.

Thomas Westenholz (35:47.385)
And what might they find, right? What might they find when we go there?

Michael Preston (35:58.136)
comes more naturally and desirably to you. So when you think about going to therapy, you’re like, let’s get it. But that level of vulnerability and exposure doesn’t set off the, like in an anxious pursuers world, that sets off a massive green light for connection.

Whereas your partner, if it’s that avoidant withdrawing partner, that level of exposure is a red light. It’s a dangerous thing to do. It doesn’t scream, here comes connection. It doesn’t scream, here comes help. It doesn’t scream, this feels good. It screams, yikes. I’m going to be out there, drifting in the sea, no lifeboat, no helicopters.

just sharks in the water and no protection. And who? Like, it would be like saying, hey, do you want to go feed sharks in the ocean? yeah, cool, let’s get one of the cages and stuff. No, no, no, no, No, no, we’re just gonna cover you in blood and throw you in the water and you’re gonna have some fish and you’re gonna hand it to the sharks. And it’s like, no, no, no, I want the cage. I want the cage. I’m not that lady out there scuba diving, know, putting my hand on that. You know that lady I’m talking about?

Thomas Westenholz (36:55.235)
Yes, and-

Thomas Westenholz (37:09.113)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (37:16.569)
On that nose, yes, yes.

Michael Preston (37:21.334)
Yeah, she’s so cool. She’s so cool. Like putting her hand on the shark and just guiding it away. I’m not going to like shark. No, like I’m the one like, no, no, no, no. Right. I want that cage. But that’s what you’re asking your partner to do. Right. If, they’re the more avoidant partner, like really settle in that you aren’t inviting your partner to the same experience. Ooh, I like the way I said that. Right. You think you’re going to an experience where you get to have great connection because you’re going to get more vulnerable and more.

Thomas Westenholz (37:29.795)
Yes.

Michael Preston (37:50.658)
and all those things. And to you, that’s like saying, let’s go to a picnic at Hyde Park on a sunny day when it’s 20 degrees outside. What a lovely day we’re gonna have. We’ll pick flowers. It’ll be really good.

Thomas Westenholz (37:52.117)
is.

Michael Preston (38:04.654)
to your partner, you’re asking them to go to the Eye of Mordor. Like this is not a fun experience. I’m gonna be walking in the desert. It’s going to be no water, no food, no shelter. And so you’re asking them to come to a very different internal experience of what it means to be exposed and vulnerable. And so the resistance you feel is going to be coming from what it means to go to therapy, what it means to be exposed.

Thomas Westenholz (38:07.865)
is, is.

Thomas Westenholz (38:33.239)
And you know what? think what you said here summarizes podcast perfectly. And it’s actually a beautiful place to end this because the overall arc of all these different things we talked about how to engage with this topic is that the only way forward is through a compassionate lens. Right. And that’s why we are trying to create understanding from the different perspectives that are having when having these conversations, because the only way forward is through compassion. Right. There’s no

Michael Preston (38:49.806)
That’s it.

Thomas Westenholz (38:59.673)
specific technique that’s going to make your partner do exactly what you want. And, know, we’re not here to teach you manipulative strategies. So I think, you know, this is why it’s so important because everything here is about what is the experience of the other person. And we, of course, interpret the world through our own frame of reference. So often if I have anxious pursuer, I will interpret the world through that. And it would be hard to understand why somebody would have this resistance and can’t they just see, of course, it will be better to get some help. And do they not care?

Michael Preston (39:06.286)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (39:14.36)
That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (39:29.049)
the other person from their perspective are probably looking at it. Whoa, why is he constantly coming at me? Why is there always something wrong with me? Right. So we’re trying to give here a lens so you can take on a new lens and see, oh, this is how it is for my partner. And maybe they can take a lens if they listen to this and see, oh, this is how it is to be you. And through that, you can actually start reconnecting. Through that, you can start hearing each other’s perspective. And you gave a perfect example of how to do that.

If you are able to go into that place where you say, how might it be for this person to get this message, right? And through that, we, it’s probably the best opportunity of having a positive outcome, right? So it’s about how can we understand, how can we engage through compassion?

Michael Preston (40:03.278)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (40:14.414)
So I want to, I love that. And it’s got me thinking about something I can hand our listeners as we end. And it’s going to be this, if this is where you are in your relationship and this podcast has been really helpful, I want you to write these things down. Cause I think it’s going to be a good guide. What we’re saying is approach the problem. So we’re going to give you three C’s. If you’re unhappy, that means there’s a problem in your relationship. Approach the problem collaboratively.

Right? How did we get here? What did I do? How did I contribute? How do I see my partner contribute? And can we talk collaboratively about the problem? So approach problems collaboratively. That’s scene number one.

Listen or approach experience compassionately. That’s your second C. Approach their experience with compassion. Okay. That’s your C. So we’ve got first C is collaborative. Second C is compassion. And the final C is approach resistance curiously. And approach your partner’s resistance with curiosity.

And if you can approach this with collaboration, compassion, and curiosity, your conversation is likely to go at least differently than the other attempts in the past. And with that.

Thomas Westenholz (41:43.513)
That’s a beautiful place to close this, right? I think people had a good 40 minutes here of how to engage and let us know how it goes. Post in the comments how your conversation goes and any questions you have. So Michael, as always, it’s been awesome to do this podcast and I can’t wait to be back next week and we will pick another topic to dive into. I’ll see you then.

Michael Preston (41:48.909)
Yeah.

Michael Preston (41:52.577)
Absolutely.

Michael Preston (42:03.384)
Sounds good, I’ll see you then Thomas. Bye bye.