Navigating Relationship Conflicts

Michael Preston (00:10.977)
Hello and welcome back to the Couples in Focus podcast. My name is Michael Preston and I’m so glad you’re here. I’m joined with my co-host Thomas. Good morning, Thomas. How we doing?

Thomas Westenholz (00:24.45)
Hey, it’s good to see you, Michael. I’m excited about getting started with the new year here and keep exploring this amazing topic because relationships are not less complicated than 2025.

Michael Preston (00:28.8)
Me too, me too.

Michael Preston (00:36.34)
No, they’re no less complicated. Hopefully, hopefully the world gets less complicated, but relationships are going to continue to find their way into trouble. hopefully, hopefully by tuning in, people can learn to begin to find their way out of that trouble.

Thomas Westenholz (00:51.48)
Yes, that’s right. That’s at least our aim with this, Ryan.

Michael Preston (00:54.708)
Yeah, that’s the hope. That’s the hope. Very good. Yeah, so today we’ve got a great topic for today. And it’s this.

Michael Preston (01:09.59)
question that’s come up that a lot of couples do face, lot of couples, as soon as I say it, people are gonna be like, yeah, we do that. And it’s about the, when people get into an argument, right, and often times in reflection they can say, it was such a small thing, but we had such a big argument, right, it got so big.

And then in that big argument about a small thing, we say something really harmful, right? Something maybe that we don’t mean, but in the heat of the moment, it just comes flying out of our mouth and it lands on our partner. And sometimes it can really shock and hurt them. Right. And so there’s kind of a two parter here.

One is how do we find ourselves in a situation where something so small, right? Just like a small pebble in our shoe feels so big and we end up having this massive row when the thing we’re talking about isn’t as big of a deal. And then after that big thing, if we’ve said something that’s really harmful and that really hurt our partner,

And we go back and we say, I’m sorry, I didn’t mean it, but that doesn’t seem to be working. It’s hanging. once those words are out there, it’s so hard to unhear them. We can’t unsay things. So how do we repair the things we say in a big argument, especially when they come out? Because in a big argument, you can have someone say, why are we even together? And then it just kind of shatters.

a sense of like one partner might be holding like, look, we can, we can argue till, you know, as we say in the South until the cows come home, right? But that may not, that may not translate here in the UK, but we can argue until the cows come home, which means we can argue till we’re blue in the face. And I’m not shaken about our relationship. And then suddenly one partner says, maybe we shouldn’t be together. And the other partner goes, whoa, that’s a big line. Like that’s a big jump to them.

Michael Preston (03:22.508)
And then how do we repair when big words come out in big arguments?

Thomas Westenholz (03:27.534)
That is a big, big, right, big discussion here. So we’ll try and unpack all this and where to, you know, as you were talking, I was just thinking when I’m editing the podcast, sometimes I wish the brain was like editing software, you could go cut out the part you shouldn’t have said, but sadly, the brain doesn’t work that way.

Michael Preston (03:43.242)
Yes. Right. If we could just mute that section, like my lips will move, but you won’t hear what I said. Cause I really, cause I’ll tell you what, there’s, mean, how many times do we hear it? Once it goes out of my mouth, the moment I said it, I instantly regretted it. Right. It’s also just that threw that pain register, right. But it’s too late.

Thomas Westenholz (03:56.142)
Yes.

Yes, and we can’t go edit it, right? We can’t. That’s right. And the brain isn’t. That’s right. The brain has already stored it. So I guess the first part of that, because we got to start somewhere with this is like, why does it even escalate? Right? and I think there’s, like, I was just thinking as you were talking, and I see what I just thought about was three big reasons that we can start by exploring here, right? I think there’s one of them is

Michael Preston (04:10.955)
Yes, yes, yes. How do we get into that space? Why?

Thomas Westenholz (04:27.362)
that there can obviously be that there has been some kind of attachment injury in this relationship, right? So it can be that there has been some critical moment of need where the other person really needed their partner. Maybe they were in hospital, maybe a parent died, whatever it might be, where they were in real distress. And for whatever reason, the partner couldn’t be there or wasn’t there to support them. And that has created this underlying distress that’s almost waiting to erupt. And the thing that happened in a moment might seem

small and insignificant, like maybe the partner forgot to take out the bin and suddenly there’s an explosion, right? Which is this, feel alone and you weren’t there that just is coming up because it hasn’t been healed and processed. I think that’s one, I’ll just quickly mention them and then we can go back and kind of explore. The second part that I thought about why sometimes it escalates as well, we all obviously come into relationship with the history of things that had happened previously in our life, right? And I know often for me,

I know that if I have an excessive response to something, it’s often very much to do with something that happens previously, right? And an old stored emotional memory of that, that get triggered, right? And then I know that that excessive response mean that I’m no longer responding to just what’s happening in the moment. I’ve now almost been regressed back in the past, but we obviously don’t know that in the moment. So it can then escalate. And an example could be, let’s say, you know,

of a person who’s grown up with an alcoholic father who would slam the door and yell and maybe their partner just leave the house, slam the door. And suddenly they come out screaming, what are you doing? You and the partner is shocked. Like how can something small like that escalate? Well, there was a regression there, right? Where suddenly that memory was spiked and then there’s an excessive strong response. And I guess the last part I thought about was that small things repeated over time.

and accumulated and not really being sorted, right, eventually becomes big. So this part, if we go back to not having taken a bin out, is small and very insignificant in itself, right? And we even laugh about it because it’s so, but if it’s happened again and again and the signal every time is you’re on your own, I’m not helping you, then eventually it creates a big distress that can come out in this eruption, right?

Michael Preston (06:29.484)
Right.

Thomas Westenholz (06:44.536)
So these are kind of three things, at least on top of my head, that I kind of thought about can really escalate what seems small into something very big.

Michael Preston (06:51.98)
Right. No, no, I really appreciate those. I think about how what you were saying there is like, how is it, and this is a such a true experience, right? This is such a great example that you named is how many partners come in and they say, I, I just forgot to take the bins out. How it like, or for my American constituents here,

I forgot to take the garbage cans out, right? How is it that big of a deal? And it’s confusing because it does seem like a small issue. But even if you always remember to take the bins out and that’s not really a thing that you struggle with, but one time you forgot and it turns into a massive argument, right? It gets really, really confusing. But you named something in there that’s really important to talk about, which is the message received.

And if in a relationship, the message is, I’m on my own and I’m not going to get any help here. Right? And that’s not being talked about. Right? There’s no way for the one partner to say, I’m really struggling. Right? Sometimes it feels like I’m on my own.

Right, if that mess and then that message gets poked and it can get poked in a lot of ways. But when the message get poked, it doesn’t feel like a small thing to be on your own. Right, it feels like a big thing. And generally speaking, people will.

Michael Preston (08:37.802)
hold onto the little moments, because they recognize that’s not a big thing, but it will stack, right? It starts to build. So you were saying small things over time become big things, right? And so by the time they do say something, it’s a collection of all the small moments they didn’t say anything about that triggered that same message, right? And so then when they finally say something,

it comes out in a big way. And by finally say something, I don’t mean they only say something like this. You you might be thinking, well, my partner does this every other day. How can that happen if it’s every other day? Right? Well, we don’t get a time to clear the cache, right?

Thomas Westenholz (09:21.838)
And I think you’re spot on. And this is really, guess, number three of what I mentioned, right? That it has accumulated. It’s been because it for some reason hasn’t felt safe to express it in the moment. There’s both the underlying message, which is, I’m not important. I’m on my own. Right. So there’s more than just what’s happening. There’s interpretation of what’s happening. And then, as you said, it has accumulated because that might not have been expressed. So when it suddenly comes, it can be very eruptive. Right. And then

Michael Preston (09:48.086)
That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (09:49.794)
You know, I just thought, as you were talking, you know, one thing that Hollywood have done so well with their movies is they always explain the why of the character to us, right? And the reason I’m saying that is we have to always understand the context of what’s happening. And that’s why Hollywood spent time to build up the character before we get the main story. Cause if we don’t understand the why, the main event doesn’t make sense.

Michael Preston (10:12.268)
Well, did you watch the Joker, the first one?

Thomas Westenholz (10:14.784)
I haven’t, but I know people say it was so well made.

Michael Preston (10:17.452)
And what it does, the reason why I think people really, really found it an intriguing and great movie is it really let you get to understand how the Joker became the Joker. And you start going, ooh, do I have compassion for like a psychopath? Right? That’s kind of the idea of the movie is look at what he’s been through. Right?

Thomas Westenholz (10:38.124)
Yes. Yes. this is why exactly, and they do it so well, right? And this is why I think understanding our partners history is actually really important because that’s what helped us just like you said, to instead of these defensive responses, actually elicit compassion, which is why Hollywood does it, right? They know it makes us feel compassion, even if maybe they are doing some things that we don’t agree with, right? And I think a good example is again, that I can, this is something that came up recently, you know, in

session was this idea that somebody comes 10 minutes late and suddenly there’s an explosion. They come through the door and they’re met by this rage and they’re baffled. They’re like, whoa, I was stuck in traffic. I was 10 minutes late. What’s going on? You’re overreacting and the other person then feel less hurt and more is killed. And it really blows out. But when I could put it into the context of an attachment history, suddenly there was compassion when they could understand actually as a little girl.

She would sit in the window and wait for her dad who never came whenever he promised to come and get her. So there’s so much anxiety accumulating in sitting waiting, right? So in those 10 minutes where he says, I’m late, he’s listening to music in the car, looking forward to seeing his wife. She’s sitting there waiting and anxiety accumulating and accumulating, right? So the second he come through that erupts because it has to get out somehow, right? She can’t hold it anymore.

Michael Preston (11:39.99)
you

Michael Preston (11:49.738)
Yeah, and make big deal.

Thomas Westenholz (12:04.11)
And it then becomes this big row and neither of them are hearing each other because he’s not hearing, oh, you know, you were back in that place where your dad would not come and you felt horrible. Let me give you a hug. He’s hearing, whoa, I’m being attacked for nothing. And then he defends and then they get stuck in these cycles. We talked about on the other podcast, right? But this is where these moments are either, as I said, something that has accumulated over time, not been expressed, right? Or it’s something where people are somehow regressing, right?

Michael Preston (12:28.31)
as

Thomas Westenholz (12:33.582)
and going back into some very painful memories. And it can be so helpful to know these histories, right, of our partners, because then we can start putting on a compassionate lens. And instead of maybe seeing in that moment, whoa, I’m being attacked over nothing. This is so unfair. She’s being so nasty. Da da da, right? You can see, oh, she’s back in this place. She’s feeling like a little girl where dad isn’t coming. Let me try and comfort her.

Michael Preston (12:53.899)
Absolutely.

Michael Preston (12:58.732)
Yeah. So I want to, I want to add this, this could be a rabbit trail. So I’m not going to go down cause we’re going to stay more focused because that’s what we’re doing here right now. Right? We have some long podcasts, a of, a lot of avenues we could go on and a lot of threads we could pull. So I’m only going to mention this and maybe we can explore it at another time, but it can be really confusing. As you say that what came up in me is then why does my partner who waited for her dad who

loses it on me when I’m leave me waiting sometimes. Right? As if it doesn’t work. And the reality is, we can talk more about this in a minute, it doesn’t always translate perfectly from me waiting and me making other people wait. Right? It doesn’t always, some people, like they really lose it if they’re going to be late because of what they’ve been through.

And some people, doesn’t hit that way with them and it never ends up like creating a rule that they have to be on time because them being late doesn’t cause the anxiety that them waiting causes, right? And we can explore why and maybe in another podcast, but I just want to acknowledge for some people listening, you might be thinking then why doesn’t it count when they are late? And for now, we’re just going to say it doesn’t, in my experience, seem to translate every time.

to if you were made to wait, you don’t want to make people wait. Sometimes it just doesn’t hit the same way. So unfortunately, it’s not, we aren’t like machines, it’s just, it’s not, oops, it’s not going to always be a one for one, right? So I’m going to pause that there because we could pull that thread, but I don’t want to keep going down, but I want to acknowledge it because I felt that coming up in my body, like, that can be really, really jarring for

Thomas Westenholz (14:47.222)
Absolutely. I hear you. I hear you. I hear you.

Michael Preston (14:52.044)
Because we’re asking to be compassionate and then they’re going to go, well, wait, like you do this to me. I hear this all the time. Yes. That’s why. And then it escalates, right? But you were late last week, right? It just doesn’t always translate. So I’m not going to pull on that thread anymore. I just wanted to mention it because it felt important to mention it.

Thomas Westenholz (14:55.864)
But you do that too. And that’s often what happens. And that’s often what happened. That’s the argument that then escalate, right?

Thomas Westenholz (15:05.312)
Yes. Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (15:11.298)
And that is important. you know, even though we won’t go down that, also have to remember the impact of an event is subjective. So my partner might be late and it doesn’t bother me the slightest. I just enjoy, I have 10 more minutes to DJ while I might be late. And for her, because of these experiences, that’s really stressful. So we can’t translate fairness in that way. Right. And again, you know, what I can even say is life isn’t fair.

Michael Preston (15:22.038)
That’s right. That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (15:36.78)
Right. I was born in Denmark and got free education. Some people don’t have access. Life really isn’t fair.

Michael Preston (15:37.086)
Yeah. Right.

Not fair. And traumas and experiences don’t always, because again, we’re not machines, right? If I put an equation into my computer and I put, you put the same equation into your computer, we will get the same result, right? That is not how humans work. And so if I have an alcoholic father and you have an alcoholic father, that doesn’t mean we’re going to carry the trauma of having an alcoholic father into our adult life.

in the same way. So it goes all kinds of ways because we have all kinds of experiences, right?

Thomas Westenholz (16:13.068)
Exactly.

Thomas Westenholz (16:18.74)
Exactly. And I think even attachment styles is a perfect example of what you’re saying, how we respond different to distress. Because the anxious pursuer had distress, but they learned I have to pursue to try and be safe. The more avoidant who I draw also had a lot of distress, but they learned I got to just count on myself. So again, it’s people who both had distress but responded and they often therefore find it hard to understand each other exactly for that reason because they will say, but I wouldn’t react that way to that.

Michael Preston (16:29.26)
That’s right.

That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (16:48.406)
No, because you adapted in a different way to dealing with distress. And there’s not a right or wrong. There were just different ways of coping.

Michael Preston (16:55.542)
That’s right. So pause on that thread for a moment. I’m going to bring us back. I’m going to bring us back to the thread that we were on because I want to keep our focus and keep being clear because I’m going to live living by the philosophy that clear is kind. Right. So let’s be really clear about where we are. We’re talking about this moment in a relationship where a small thing turns into a big fight and we can’t figure out why and couples come in and they say, why are we arguing so

Thomas Westenholz (17:06.971)
Yes.

Michael Preston (17:25.568)
big about the bins? Why is it? Why does it seem so important? And the thing that you were naming one is the repetition in a relationship when things get, when things happen repeatedly, right? That’s a big one. But the other thing you were naming, and I think it’s really important to be very clear about what we’re talking about is the meaning people make about an event, right? So the meaning one partner makes about their partner.

coming home late.

could be, I don’t know that they’re actually coming home. Maybe they won’t return. Right. And maybe the meaning they begin to make is they know this makes me anxious. Right. And now they’re doing it and they don’t care that I’m anxious because if they cared that I’m anxious, they would message me and let me know they’re going to be late. Right. And so then suddenly being

10 minutes late isn’t just being 10 minutes late. Being 10 minutes late hits the message, the meaning they make, which is maybe my partner doesn’t care about me, right? Doesn’t care about the impact. That’s right. And then adding a bit of a layer, why does it get so big? Right? And this, I believe, is so important about why it gets so big because

Thomas Westenholz (18:43.339)
not important yeah

Michael Preston (18:56.818)
If they’re in a meeting, that same person in a meeting, right? And they’re waiting for someone to come to that meeting with them and maybe they’re at work, right? Maybe it’s their boss, maybe it’s a colleague. And that person is running five, 10 minutes late. That person walks in the door. Do you think that person is going to lose it on that person? Probably not. Right? Because it’s that important. That’s right. And so the deeper

Thomas Westenholz (19:17.874)
not because they’re not that important they’re not they’re not as significant to the safety system right exactly.

Michael Preston (19:27.816)
Meaningfulness, the relationship, right? One person bumps me in that people are running late and maybe I just get annoyed, right? But it’s more like, you know, I can brush that off because it doesn’t touch my pain, it doesn’t touch my heart, it doesn’t touch me in a deep way. But if my partner who knows me so well, right?

That touches in a different way and it touches a different place. And so suddenly what I can normally brush off in my public version of self, but in my more intimate relationship, it’s not so easy to brush off anymore, right? And so the small thing that I can normally see as a small thing when it’s this person. And so I know this is hard because again, it’s kind of down to that one life isn’t fair all the time.

Thomas Westenholz (20:24.248)
Yes.

Michael Preston (20:24.424)
It’s not fair that your partner gets that response. But if we can say, you know, it’s actually because of how much you mean to your partner that you’re able to touch into the place that hurts and scares them. And then they get into a reactive response.

Thomas Westenholz (20:44.686)
That’s right.

Yes.

Michael Preston (20:47.648)
which is sad and that’s what we do in couples therapy, right? Is we do help people begin to organize that reactive response and help send a more different and clear signal to their partner, which is so important.

Thomas Westenholz (21:00.046)
That’s right. And like what you’re saying is the reason that they impact us in this way and it escalates is actually because they’re so important, right? Which is, is, that’s why you can impact them in such a way. And, know, I was just thinking it might be helpful for people also to just understand how we process the world a little bit. Cause I think then we can start stepping back and seeing what happens. So what happens is that we can only process a little bit of information. Often when we get a communication, let’s say this example of being late.

Michael Preston (21:07.424)
is so important. That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (21:29.464)
The only information I have is this person is late, but the brain has to make meaning out of what happens. So the less pieces of information the brain has, the more it has to fill out the gaps to have a coherent story that makes sense, right? To them. And the, and the only way it can do that is to go back into emotional memory and it then picks up from that and make sense of what had just happened now. So it fills out all the gaps. So there’s a whole story, right? The problem with that.

Michael Preston (21:42.508)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (21:56.524)
That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (21:58.058)
is as we just seen, if this person has been, you know, we’re sitting waiting for their dad, they will then start making that meaning. He doesn’t care. I’m not important. He’s not going to come, et cetera. Right. And, know, understanding this is helpful, I think for both partners, because the person who get really triggered, right. By this cue can start stepping back and saying, Hey, I don’t actually know the facts. Right. I’m obviously putting all these things on top of what I think it means. And that might help them, you know, slow down a tiny bit at least. And the other partner.

Maybe knowing that if they only see this little information, they will have to go back in the history to make sense of it, right? Can then be more clear. So if I’m the partner who then sometimes I’m late, right? I can remember, I better call her and tell her I’m stuck in traffic because now I’m helping her or him. It’s not gender. It’s just that I’m my partner as a woman. then whatever gender it is, right? It’s not about the gender, but then I could call her up and say, listen, I’m late.

Michael Preston (22:43.244)
That’s

Michael Preston (22:47.564)
All right. Yeah.

Thomas Westenholz (22:56.802)
And it’s because I’m stuck in traffic, I’m estimated to be home in whatever 30 minutes. That way I’m helping the brain fill out the missing information. That means he doesn’t have to now go back in this old painful bank and fill out the gap, right? So I just wanted to say that because I think it can help both partners just realize the more clear information I give, the less likely they have to go into this old bank of information to make sense of it.

Michael Preston (22:58.924)
That’s it.

Michael Preston (23:09.452)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (23:21.996)
like clear is kind because it’s a kindness because what you’re saying is when we are clear with our partner, like, hey, I just got out the office. I already know I’m going to be a few minutes behind. Right. When we can send that clear signal to our partner, it fills in the gap of missing information. And when a relationship is dominated by arguments and disconnection, the gaps

that are left, like, one of the phrases I use a lot in my sessions with couples when they talk about that gap, right, usually it’s silence or I just don’t hear anything, right, and what I’ll say is when you don’t hear anything, the story takes on a life of its own. And what I’m hearing you say is the story isn’t good.

Right. It doesn’t fill it in with kind and compassionate and understanding gaps unless there’s a lot of trust and repeated acts of like, usually when this happens, he sends me a message. She sends me a message. They send me a message. Right. And it’s usually this thing. And so that’s the gap that I put in place. But when it’s no information consistently, the gaps go from.

and John Gottman talks about this, newlywed couples go from filling in the gap with the benefit of the doubt. And the more times I have to use the benefit of the doubt without information and the more argumentative our relationship becomes, that goes over to the other side of, what he calls negative sentiment override. But it goes into like, now I’m going to assume the worst and actually assume bad things about you. Like you meant to do this.

Thomas Westenholz (25:17.966)
That’s right. And it’s important to get this right, because also we do have a negative bias, meaning we are more likely to presume something is a danger cue if we don’t know, then we are norm… Exactly. Exactly. That’s right. But this is also a big part of what we do in therapy is helping bridge that gap of all these missing pieces, right? As you said, because…

Michael Preston (25:27.658)
Because we’re survival creatures. Because that’s our survival mechanism. Assume the worst. I mean, the Boy Scouts, right? Be prepared.

Michael Preston (25:42.54)
That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (25:45.61)
Often they come in and there’s some cue, something that happens like being late or whatever the example is. And then there’s a perception of what that meant. And in between all these missing, we also film directors, see, because we fill in the whole why, right? So suddenly they’re able to understand what is happening here, why it’s happening. And they have a context where they can then start filling out new information than they one they had put into this narrative, right?

Michael Preston (26:02.518)
We do.

Michael Preston (26:14.124)
That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (26:14.602)
So we almost create a new narration, which is why I said maybe we’re film directors too. Yes.

Michael Preston (26:17.13)
Yeah, it’s like a whole new storyboard, right? Like, and you even hear people later in therapy start saying, like, I had no idea this was going on for my partner, but now I know, right? The story has changed because my partner has helped me understand. So I want to recap where we’ve been, right? Small things become big things. When there’s a gap in the story, right, something isn’t clear and there’s a history of this

Thomas Westenholz (26:26.478)
Mm-hmm.

Thomas Westenholz (26:30.798)
That’s it. That’s it.

Michael Preston (26:46.332)
unclear communication. And then the gap starts being filled by a story that isn’t kind and is often scary. Right? That’s the gap in the story, the gap in what’s our communication actually creates a gap in our relationship. it’s that.

Thomas Westenholz (27:06.872)
Yes, because in that gap, the partner become a perceived threat. They’re not a threat, but they become a perceived threat, right? And then we have to… That’s right. That’s it.

Michael Preston (27:14.38)
That’s right. Well, the gap is a threat. That’s the thing. The gap is the threat. My partner’s not the threat, but the gap that they’ve left. And that gap can be not messing when you’re coming home late, but I also want to name another one, not touching me, right? Like if I come home and my partner’s really busy and every day I come home, they’re just like, can you do this? Right? It’s just throwing something out there. And it’s not a stop and a pause and say, hey, let me give you a hug. How are you?

Thomas Westenholz (27:36.258)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (27:40.738)
Yes.

Michael Preston (27:40.95)
Like if that’s consistent, I’m not saying hug your partner every single day and all your problems will go away. But I am saying if one partner comes home every day and what they would love is just a loving embrace, but that goes missing, right? And suddenly they’re just like, you know, I guess my partner doesn’t really care that I even come home. Maybe, maybe they wouldn’t care if I’m coming or going. And so coming home late isn’t really a big deal because when I do come home, my partner doesn’t even…

They don’t care. don’t acknowledge me. And so why would I come home on time? Why would it matter to them? I didn’t even know it mattered to them that I come home late.

Thomas Westenholz (28:18.702)
And you know what? I think it’s so important what you’re saying. And I have to say, my grandmother told me this before Gottman did, importance of greeting and goodbyes or when you leave and come, right? I know he’s written about it, but my grandmother told me this, right? And she was with my granddad for 70 plus years and a very happy marriage and always importance of when you meet again, slow down. It doesn’t matter how busy you are. Just stop for one minute.

Michael Preston (28:30.117)
yeah yeah yeah yeah. Yes yes.

Thomas Westenholz (28:47.214)
You do have one minute, right? If you don’t, then look at your priorities. Slow down for one minute. And I do this, you know, with my partner very often when we come home and I know she has a lot of things and tasks, which makes sense. There is a lot, right? Oh, we got to start with the cook. I said, I know we do, but nothing is going to happen if we just stop for 60 seconds, sit on the sofa, look at each other and say, how was your day? And give each other a hug. And, know, I really

Michael Preston (28:59.968)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Michael Preston (29:08.683)
Right.

Thomas Westenholz (29:11.31)
pushed implementing this and it makes a big difference, right? And she will say too, it makes a big difference. Suddenly we now feel connected when we go cooking instead of being in two separate worlds, just getting on with things because that feels quite disconnecting, right? So they can be so small, but doing small things with consistency is really what changes it, right? Not having the big beautiful wedding or et cetera. It’s a small consistent actions over time.

Michael Preston (29:36.492)
That’s right. And so that’s what, that’s what we’re really wanting to name there, right? Small consistent actions over time, whether it’s greeting every day or, you know, in general as a, as a guiding rule, right? And that builds a consistency of priority or it’s coming home and not being greeted. Right. And if that’s consistent over time,

that gets more and more difficult to manage. And then small things become big things because it’s consistent, right? Over time. So that’s really important. So that’s what we’re naming there. And I want to, I want to, can I keep us focused a little bit? Cause we can stay there, but I want to push onto the next question about that is when a big thing, when a small thing becomes a big argument and I say a hard, big thing to my partner, right? And this con

This is every relationship, right? Because we get activated and the small moment turns into a big fight and the big fight turns into a devastating declaration, right? Maybe if you call your partner name, maybe you say, I don’t know if this is going to work or why are we even together? We say something harmful and there’s likely not many relationships out there that can’t relate to that. But then

How do we fix it? How do we come back to our partner? And how often we try to say, I’m sorry, and I didn’t mean it, and it just doesn’t seem to be cutting it.

Thomas Westenholz (31:19.618)
Yes. And I think that’s very common what you’re mentioning here either that the other person don’t want to say sorry. And there can be a lot of reasons for that. We won’t explore today, but it could be things like maybe they’re associated with something being wrong with their character. Then it’s very hard to apologize. Right. So either they don’t want to apologize or they say sorry, but as you said, it doesn’t land. Right. And I think this is really important because there are some key components in repairing fractures. First of all, of course, every time we go

very extreme and maybe threaten the relationship, it does cause harm. And that’s important to realize before we go to these extreme that even though, I was just angry, threatening that fundamental safety does cause fracture and limit the safety that is felt in a relationship, right? But let’s say it has happened because you’re right, things can happen to all of us. There can be moments where we can’t contain it and it comes out. I think what is really key in repair is that the partner have to see that we feel

Michael Preston (32:04.075)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (32:18.35)
the impact we had on them. So we can cognitively, logically just come and say, I was sorry about that and then go on with the day. But they didn’t feel that we felt the pain that hurt that we actually caused. And we need to see that they feel it because that tells the nervous system, we are back in emotional connection and I can trust this emotional without them feeling it. I’m still on my own emotionally and I know that intuitively, right? So it doesn’t land. So this is why it’s about

Michael Preston (32:20.46)
That’s

Thomas Westenholz (32:46.476)
And this is part of what we do in our therapy too, right? Is making sure that it’s not just, I’m sorry, cognitive apology, right? It’s seeing the other person. We try to say, you know, what are you noticing inside as you hear your partner saying that because we want to get the felt experience that they had on them. And hearing that is what start and even just having it once for many people can, that’s

Michael Preston (33:09.856)
Yeah, let me pause it there, right? What you’re saying is when I’ve done something harmful to my partner.

There is an immediate need to pause and say, not, I’m sorry, but I see it. I see how that hurt you. I even understand how painful that would be. And I hurt, like I’m hurting.

because of the hurt that I caused. So I have to see it. If I don’t see it, or if I do see it, okay, let’s say that. Let’s say I know I hurt them, right? That’s why I said I’m sorry. Isn’t that what I’m sorry means, right? And it’s like, yes and no, right? Yes and no, because the no part of that is you may know you see it.

But what you’re saying is my partner has to know that I have to speak.

Thomas Westenholz (34:23.342)
They have to feel it, right? They have to see, we have to see that they actually felt the impact they had on us, right? I think that’s such key. And then also genuine remorse, right? Cause when we can see there’s emotional, yes. Cause when we can see it hurt them to hurt us, that tells us that empathy is online. We know this intuitively, right? So we just respond to it because it tells us empathy is now if we just get, I’m sorry.

Michael Preston (34:28.192)
That’s right. Yes.

Michael Preston (34:35.628)
That’s the I heard part. Yeah.

Hmm.

Michael Preston (34:44.458)
Right. That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (34:49.568)
It doesn’t tell us that empathy actually is there and therefore there is no safe bond yet, right? Whatever the words might be. And that’s why.

Michael Preston (34:54.923)
Yes.

So this is really interesting, right? Because this is not what we were taught as kids, right? And we’ve just got a few more minutes here. So I’m gonna stay really close to this.

But this is what we were taught as kids. One kid goes to the teacher, goes to the parent and says this, and the parent turns to the other one and says, say, I’m sorry. Right? That’s, that’s, that’s what, and then they go to the other person and said, okay, are you okay now? And we go away. That’s a, and that’s supposed to solve all the world’s issues, right? Just say you’re sorry. And it just doesn’t work. Right? And instead what we’re saying here is, if I came to them and said, help me understand?

Thomas Westenholz (35:20.45)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (35:26.958)
I

Michael Preston (35:41.462)
how I hurt you, like what, not how I hurt you, I know how I hurt you, right? But how my words impacted you and I’m willing to listen to the pain you went through and I’m willing to honor that pain and say, I see it. And when I see the pain I caused, it breaks my heart that I such pain. And that,

That’s a true healing conversation. Why I’m sorry doesn’t work. And I want to be very explicit here. Why your I’m sorry’s aren’t working is because I’m sorry is often more a way to navigate my own guilt and get away from it. Because it’s a bad feeling. It feels bad to feel bad about causing someone else to feel bad. It sucks.

And so people often say, I’m sorry to end the conversation and to get away from the pain they caused, which leaves their partner in the pain that was caused all alone.

Thomas Westenholz (36:51.886)
And even I think a typical strategy I know from a lot of people with more avoidant tendencies is to say sorry to try and deescalate and just stop the conflict, right? Because they become overwhelming. So it’s like this, okay, sorry, then hopefully it will calm down and I don’t have to hear more about it. But as you said, it leaves the other person even more alone.

Michael Preston (36:59.628)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (37:10.974)
even more alone, which is going to be the next time that comes close to that, right? We’ll go right back to what we started with. The next time you come close to that particular pain, that small thing is gonna be huge because you’re hitting that pain again, right? And I wanna add a little bit more of a compassionate lens, right? Because that’s what we’re really wanting people to understand. Even everything that happens is understandable if we take time. But even that part, it’s not just about avoiding the pain that we caused.

Thomas Westenholz (37:16.844)
Yes. Even more intense.

That’s right. That’s right.

Michael Preston (37:40.532)
It’s also about avoiding the shame that we feel. Right? I’m sorry is a way to like, because we feel so ashamed that we would cause that pain. But when we, when our partner starts saying it hurt me, the message we, get clogged up in isn’t, wow, I really need to move close to my partner and help them with this pain. The message we get clogged up in on the inside is when a partner comes to say, you really hurt me when you said that.

The message often I hear going on in the inside is, I’m a piece of shit. Right? Like that’s the message that gets. And so when we start going, I’m so sorry, I’m so sorry, I’m so sorry, we’re looking for our partner to say, it’s okay, because we’re having them help us with the message coming in saying, I’m a piece of shit. And if my partner will say, it’s okay, then that shame will go away. Right? So now we’re managing a lot on the inside through that, I’m sorry, but it’s causing more harm.

in the relationship. And so it’s like, man, can we, can we slow our bodies down, right? So slow our bodies down, see the pain that we’ve caused, understand the pain we caused and maybe even share as, as you come to me with this, I feel so ready to say, I’m sorry, because I can hear this thing in my head saying I’m a piece of shit, right?

Thomas Westenholz (38:43.064)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (39:01.518)
And you know, and this is also spot on. I think so there’s, think what we talked about, and I know we have to finish up now, there’s the component here, which is the most important is the emotional resonance that comes back, right? That I hear you’re with me emotionally. And I think the second part to a really helpful repair after that emotional resonance and you’ve seen the empathy and that it impacted them is to know what’s going to be different in the future when this happens again, especially if there’s been a big fracture, right?

Michael Preston (39:08.501)
Yeah.

Thomas Westenholz (39:31.064)
So that could be saying actually next time I’m going to call you when I’m late. Yeah. Cause that gives a reassurance that action now will be different. Right. And those two components together tend to then say, okay, now I can relax.

Michael Preston (39:43.37)
Yeah. Right. Something has to change. Right. And not perfectly. Right. Just I just want people to walk away knowing it can be imperfect. Right. I if I’ve if I’ve never had it in my mind to call my partner when I’m running late, like it’s because it’s never been a big deal to me or I’ve never thought they cared. Shifting that’s going to take practice. And it’s likely you’re not going to shift it like the next day.

Thomas Westenholz (39:47.181)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (40:09.4)
That’s right, but even I think trying and making the effort sends a signal, right, that I’m here and I care.

Michael Preston (40:13.548)
And when it happens and you know these things and your partner’s upset when you come home, you go, shit, I forgot to call. I forgot the text. I see that. It’s so hard for me to remember. I’m going to put a reminder on my phone. Like something that shows you want to make effort because wanting to make effort and owning the misstep sends a signal that I matter to my partner.

Thomas Westenholz (40:23.854)
That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (40:30.702)
That’s right, that’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (40:38.403)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (40:42.03)
That’s right. And you know what?

Michael Preston (40:43.648)
And that’s what people are getting into the argument. That’s why small things become big things, because I don’t know that I matter to you. So I make it a big thing. Okay.

Thomas Westenholz (40:51.47)
That’s it. And you know what? That’s a beautiful way to finish on. I think if anybody who listening are late, at least you know what to do now.

Michael Preston (40:54.827)
Right there.

Michael Preston (40:58.56)
That’s right. All right. Well, hey, look, we are so grateful for you to join us today. Keep tuning in. We’re going to keep releasing our episodes. We hope you show up and learn more about how to be deeply connected to your partner, how to find your way back to each other when the inevitable ruptures happen. Thank you for listening, Thomas. Thanks for spending time with me today. I’ll talk to you soon.