Navigating Sexual Intimacy in Relationships

.Thomas Westenholz (00:09.432)
So welcome back to the podcast, Couples in Focus. And we are back this week with Michael and of course me, Thomas. And today we really want to talk a bit about a topic that often is, I think, silenced a bit. And I even think a lot of therapists don’t talk too much about it. Often it might not even come into the therapy room. And it’s very hard, I think, for lot of couples to talk about this topic we’re going to address today, which is really about sexual intimacy.

Michael Preston (00:38.11)
Mm-hmm.

Thomas Westenholz (00:38.326)
And it’s often something that gets put under the carpet when it becomes a bit too painful, right? We might anticipate rejection. We might anticipate we can’t meet our partner’s need, whatever it might be. And it just becomes this silent death, right? Of dissatisfaction or feeling inadequate or angry, whatever it might be, that is just not really discussed until, as you mentioned before, we started recording that a lot of people feel like they’re just housemate. They’re just functioning together.

Michael Preston (01:05.726)
Yeah, yeah, we hear that a lot.

Thomas Westenholz (01:08.234)
Exactly. And I just really want to recognize, first of all, that sexuality is a big part of intimate relationships and it’s rarely really fully discussed, right? And it’s a big part of having a romantic, intimate partnership and also our expression as a human being. So that’s why we kind of want to address it a bit today. And yeah, I kind of just want to throw out the pot there today, Michael and

Yeah, also just get your thoughts on this topic and kind of what you obviously experience in your therapy room around this.

Michael Preston (01:40.096)
I’ll tell you, it’s what you’re saying is that there’s a lot of couples that come in and they say, we’re just housemates, right? And that’s kind of where they start the conversation. And that also means when I ask about it, so what is your sex life like? Nine times out of 10 in that situation, it’s gonna be, yeah, it’s not happening, right? And I’ll say this, there is an incredible

percentage of couples living in what would be considered a sexless marriage. Actually, let me just see because I want to get this right. I used to know this number, but I’m going take a second.

Thomas Westenholz (02:21.838)
Are you looking up the statistics for… Yes.

Michael Preston (02:23.04)
I am, I am, I am. The various studies put it at upwards to 40%, where sexless is like a number below, like once, averaging once a month, right? So less than 12 times a year, right? That would be considered sexless, like a pretty non-existent sex life. And that’s a big number.

of marriages walking around or long-term committed relationships walking around where sex isn’t part of it anymore. And oftentimes couples found that that was easy in the beginning and they go, happened? And they don’t understand and they don’t have a language for those things. So I think this is, it’s a massive important topic. And to be fair, the couples that come to see us, right, are more likely to have sexual issues because they’re already having relationship issues, right?

Thomas Westenholz (03:03.374)
Yeah. Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (03:20.846)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (03:21.172)
So most couples that are coming into our office are having sexual issues, whether that’s mismatched libido or sexless relationship, or they both would like to have more sex, but just, you know, they don’t find the time. They don’t have the conversations around it, right? There’s very rarely, I don’t know about you, but very rarely when I have a couple that doesn’t have a good communication and a deep connection, do they say, but sexually we’re totally fine. I guess there are, happens, but it’s not often.

Thomas Westenholz (03:43.939)
Yes.

Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely. And you know what I find fascinating when I ask myself this question, how do we get there? Right? There’s often some kind of external element. And then there’s a second part is how we deal with that together. Right? And often when people are obviously in a therapy room, there has been the external element and they weren’t able to deal with it. Right? Which is why it became a big fracture that then slowly disintegrated and impacted the relationship in this way.

Michael Preston (03:55.648)
Yeah.

Michael Preston (04:03.668)
Mm-hmm.

Thomas Westenholz (04:16.174)
Because just looking at some of these factors, of course, there could be, I think we mentioned, can be a different in sex drive, right? Which is very, very normal. There could be suddenly kids come in and there’s a constant overwhelm just trying to deal with everyday life. there’s just, yeah, the body, there’s hormonal changes. So there’s so many different factors, right? That can impact our sexuality with our partner. There’s also just the fact that over time we got more accustomed to them.

Michael Preston (04:23.488)
Yep.

Michael Preston (04:30.56)
And there’s body changes, right? All of it.

So much going on.

Thomas Westenholz (04:44.33)
And as with anything human novelty, when something is new, we get more dopamine, right? So it feels more exciting over time. It might take a bit more effort, right? And often in the beginning, we did make a bit more effort because we dressed up, we went on dates, right?

Michael Preston (04:53.525)
Yeah.

Michael Preston (04:58.144)
Well, yeah, that goes back to what we had said in another podcast, right? That I think I shared holding my wife’s hand sends big sparks, but it doesn’t produce the same thing, right? And if people are chasing that sexual experience with one partner over 20 years, if you’re looking for that experience, if that’s what you think about as a good sexual relationship, it will be very hard.

Thomas Westenholz (05:00.564)
Exactly. Exactly.

Thomas Westenholz (05:10.072)
That’s it.

Thomas Westenholz (05:15.062)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (05:21.549)
Yes.

Michael Preston (05:24.448)
Right? It would, I think it would be really disappointing and then you would keep coming to sex with a disappointing experience, right? That somehow, I’m not saying sex isn’t great. Um, you know, again, I’ve been married 17 years. Sex is wonderful, right? With one partner for the last 17 years, sex is wonderful. Okay. Uh, I’m just saying it’s, it’s, if you’re, if your expectation of it is that it, if it doesn’t feel like the first time every time for the rest of my life, then is it good?

Thomas Westenholz (05:46.733)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (05:53.603)
Yes.

Michael Preston (05:54.246)
If that’s what you’re looking for, then likely you’re going to define your sex life as not good.

Thomas Westenholz (05:58.882)
Yeah, and you know, I think this is fascinating because I sex changes over time in a relationship. Just like you said, even holding the hand changes over time. It doesn’t mean it becomes less great. It becomes great in a new way. Now it gives you that sense of comfort, right? I’m home, maybe not the spa. And I think often the same with sex. have this expectation that in beginning we have novelty, right? So all the hormones are firing and it’s so exciting. Over time,

Michael Preston (06:12.96)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s right. That’s right.

Michael Preston (06:19.786)
It is.

Thomas Westenholz (06:26.87)
It’s still great, but I think we have to accept a transition into something new. So while it might not give you the same instant spark because it’s not the newness, of course you can add some new element of newness if you want, but it doesn’t naturally have the same spark. That’s quite natural. However, it now becomes, and this is what I think is really beautiful, actually a much deeper way of having intimacy. Because in the beginning there might be the excitement of new. However, there wasn’t the safety of being able to fully share.

So the more you get to know someone, the more, if you have safety, of course, often this doesn’t happen when people come into the therapy room, but within safety, you can actually share much more of these parts. You often keep hidden from other people and the world, and that can create a big emotional intimacy, right? And that becomes more and more possible the longer you know, the more trust you have if there is that frame of safety. So I just want to say it’s natural for sex to change. However, it doesn’t have to become less.

It becomes less instantly exciting, but it can actually become much more intimate over time too, because you can share more of yourself, of who you really are in this way with somebody else, right?

Michael Preston (07:35.594)
Yep, I agree. And so I just want to take a second, kind of frame our conversation today. So everyone listening in will have an idea of what we’re going to touch on here, right? Because couples, again, if you’re listening to this, you’re looking for a couple’s advice, you’re thinking about couples therapy, you’re in couples therapy, it’s likely you have an intimacy problem as well. One of the most common intimacy problems we see

we’ve been talking about this pursuer-withdrawer dynamic and how relationships organize their communication around pursuing and withdrawing. There’s also the sexual cycle, which is often the inverse of that, the reverse of that. Your emotional withdraw becomes a sexual pursuer, and your emotional pursuer becomes your sexual withdraw. And so often what we run into, and I think this is kind of the

most common way people frame it, right? Which is, want emotional intimacy in order to have a sexual relationship. I need emotional connection. That’s on one end. And on the other end, the partner is saying, but I feel more emotionally connected with you through a sexual connection with you. And so we’re going a little bit chicken and egg situation, right? Like who’s going to get the connection first, right? And that’s, think a lot of couples come into our office going, I’ll give you that, but I’m not getting any of this over here.

Well, I’m not actually getting any of this over here, so I’m not giving you any of over there. Right. And it becomes an impasse. And so they don’t know each other emotionally and they don’t know each other sexually. Right. And that is the common bit. then, and then so we’ll talk a bit about that dynamic and how they both interplay with each other and what you can do. Like we really want to be clear. We want to help you think about what you can be doing.

to create an avenue to address the sexual issues in your relationship that you’re experiencing with your partner in a way that opens the relationship up to new possibilities sexually and new conversations that I think will lead to a deeper sense of connection, which will help the partner who’s looking for that connection also be open to physical connection as well.

Thomas Westenholz (10:02.638)
So I think this is really good. brought that up. And I think let’s start there. Cause as we said, there can be many different causes of what initially started, what has led us here. Like we said, kids, hormonal, blah, blah, whatever it might have been different drives. however, I think let’s start with what you said, this dynamic where one have felt emotional staffed, right. For quite a while. And the other one, they often feel connected through the physical, the sexual, right.

Michael Preston (10:12.778)
all of it.

Thomas Westenholz (10:27.626)
experience. So they’re kind of standing on each side of the fence saying, but I want mine first. No, I want mine first. And so neither of them are getting any of what they want. Right. And it even comes a bit back to our podcast on needs, right? Cause this is often what happens when people end up standing. We both want this, but we get it in different ways. And I’m waiting for you to first come before I come and meet. And then like you said, there’s this impasse where nobody wants to cross the river. Right.

Michael Preston (10:31.658)
That’s right. Yeah.

Michael Preston (10:48.564)
Yeah, exactly.

That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (10:53.506)
And suddenly there’s too many crocodiles in the river and then they say, no, I’m not swimming across.

Michael Preston (10:56.788)
No, can’t do it, right? Can’t, can’t, our relationship cannot do it. That’s the problem. Yeah.

Thomas Westenholz (11:01.26)
Yes, that’s right. And then that becomes the frame that they have, right? And the narrative that they have. then often it gets silenced, not much happened. And it goes into this place where we just function. We deal with the kids, we work together. People might even come in, you know, I’ve seen this more in dynamics where it’s maybe unavoidable and unavoidable, where they function well together and they have good friends. have pretty good life. The kids are doing, but they just have no intimacy. Yeah.

Michael Preston (11:22.772)
Yeah, yeah,

Michael Preston (11:29.534)
Yep. Yep.

Thomas Westenholz (11:30.454)
And often, even though it’s not explicit, there’s still a hurt around that, right? There’s a missing, there’s a grieving that seemed to be happening. And I think this is very fascinating because it comes into the dynamic we talked about before, right? That in this example you’re giving here, it’s very often there has been a pursuer that has felt so emotionally starved. Not because the other person don’t want to respond. They might not have missed the cues. They might not have known how to do that, right? It might not be the model they had.

So there haven’t been that and eventually this emotional starvation might have turned into anger and resentment, right? And then, as you said, actually it swaps in the sexual part that the one who normally would pursue an emotional response actually withdraws and don’t want to be physical. And suddenly the other person become more anxious and now pursue that physical contact and you almost get this reverse cycle, right? It’s very interesting to observe.

Michael Preston (12:06.538)
Yes.

Michael Preston (12:15.061)
So.

Michael Preston (12:19.284)
Yep. Yep.

Thomas Westenholz (12:28.136)
that obviously is very painful for both of them and similar to the normal cycle. It’s often not discussed and there’s not awareness that this is happening.

Michael Preston (12:36.35)
Yeah. So let’s think about that. Let’s take this one side at a time so we can keep this really clear. Because with, especially with this topic being very clear is really important. So let’s start with the sexual withdraw. The partner in the relationship who normally is looking for emotional connection, the one that’s holding the responsibility in the relationship to check in and say, hey, how are you? How was your day? What’s going on in your world?

And then we’ll work on understanding what’s happening to the person who is pulling away sexually. We wanna hold that and it’d be understanding. And we wanna help our listeners understand what’s happening on the other side of that as well. And I think if we take it one side at a time, that can help people begin to see this as a problem on both ends. Because I think, I don’t know about you, I think the fear is for withdrawers,

For the sexual pursuers, right, our natural withdrawers, more avoidant partner, is that their partner isn’t interested in sex, or their partner isn’t interested in them sexually. And so it becomes really personal. And so I wanna take some of that personal message out of it because I’ve never met a, I won’t say never, nine times out of 10, sexual withdrawers aren’t uninterested in sex. Yeah?

Would you agree with that? Like there’s interest on both sides. How we get there is different.

Thomas Westenholz (14:07.618)
Yes, absolutely. Like we said, of course there can be a difference in drive, right? Like how frequently people want sex, but I don’t think when we come to the place where there’s a complete shutdown, it’s rarely because there’s no desire. It’s purely that because there has been this complete lack of emotional responsiveness and they felt so alone for so long, this anger and resentment of course shut down sexual response. Because when we are grieving, when we are angry, when we are resentful,

This is not what allow for a sexual flow, right? And the sexual response in our body to start feeling sexual. So that’s kind of blocking what seems so easy in the beginning because this hadn’t built up yet, right? We haven’t had.

Michael Preston (14:47.914)
Yeah, it’s kind of like there’s this like dam happening. Yeah, so thinking of as like there’s this river that’s flowing really well in the very beginning. But then, and again, in the beginning, when we think about how the relationship works, both people are intentionally giving to the relationship, right? Creating time for it. Even your avoidant attachment in a new relationship is going to lean in and listen and laugh at the thing or…

Thomas Westenholz (14:51.223)
Yes.

Michael Preston (15:16.03)
show interest in what they’re talking about. All of those things are emotional connection. All of those things are being present in a relational present way. And what you’re saying is as that begins to go away, it’s like some big things start flowing down that river and getting caught. And then that slows down the river a bit. And then more thing, more time like that. And then more withdrawal, busier at work. All of those things that start to take away.

Thomas Westenholz (15:20.366)
That’s Ryan.

Michael Preston (15:43.668)
what was really important to that person as far as the relationship. Those begin to dam it up.

Thomas Westenholz (15:48.92)
Yes. And that’s, it’s really important. I think it’s important what you’re saying, because it gives us a model for what goes missing. Because what you’re saying is even in the beginning, the more natural, the one that has more natural withdrawal pattern that they engage with, they will still show up. They’re still listening. They’re still there on the date, giving you their attention. But after a while,

Michael Preston (16:03.85)
Yup, yeah!

I mean not many people make it past first dates if they spend the whole day on their phone going, uh-huh. Uh-huh. You don’t make it past the first date. Right?

Thomas Westenholz (16:12.472)
That’s right. And that’s right. Exactly. And then later, when we go in more to our natural pattern and life’s overwhelmed, come with kids, we’ll work, then the withdraw is overwhelmed and their tendency is to come home and withdraw. So they now no longer sits there and give you that dedicated attention. They go to the office or they go to their sport or whatever, because they need to calm themselves down. And that’s how their nervous system learned to do it. And therefore now these moments have missed.

Michael Preston (16:21.229)
man it-

Michael Preston (16:24.98)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Thomas Westenholz (16:39.938)
Yeah, these moments that in the beginning were there where you actually, they did sit down, they did give each other dedicated attention, they did listen, they did acknowledge what was said, all this slowly start getting missing. And that’s what you’re describing, right? As a river slowly drying up. And that will eventually for the other partner then dry up their sexual response because what was excitement, what was feeling important, what was feeling special, get replaced with the opposite messages, right?

Michael Preston (16:55.712)
That’s

Michael Preston (17:00.106)
Mmm.

Thomas Westenholz (17:08.354)
that I don’t matter, I’m not that important to you. And now I start getting angry and that doesn’t allow sexuality to flow, right?

Michael Preston (17:15.242)
Right. Right. I really liked this example that I heard a long time ago, but it goes, if you think about for the pursuer, for the more anxious partner, for the secure partner, think too, if like sex is the culmination, right? It’s an expression of the relationship they have, right? Because all of those little moments feed that sexuality that you were naming, right?

if you don’t feed that part of them through connection, it dries up the sexuality. And I like the expression of thinking about your relationship as like a cake, right? And all of the connection part, right? The conversation, the talking, the checking in, the, you know, literally the washing up the dishes, right? I say that funnily, but often I get good feedback around that like, yeah, when he washes up the dishes.

Like he’s in there cleaning with me and I see him engaging with the kids and I see him rolling on the floor and playing with the kids. And I see my husband, you know, talking to me and making me a cup of tea and sit on the couch. Nothing makes this person more sexy to me than that level of engagement. And all of those things are like cake, right? The vanilla part of the cake, right? And then for that partner, sex is the icing on top of that, right? It’s just like the thing that makes it

Thomas Westenholz (18:35.77)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (18:40.536)
Yes.

Michael Preston (18:44.052)
Better, okay? Here’s the thing about cake. I love cake and I could eat cake without icing. But I don’t just want to sit down and eat a tub of icing. Does that make sense? Like that’s what the sexual withdraw, the one that wants that intimacy first is saying, like, I don’t just want a sexual relationship with you.

Thomas Westenholz (18:44.814)
That’s spot on.

Michael Preston (19:10.09)
And there’s often a fear that goes, I just have sex with you, are you really going to come and have a cuddle with me? Are you really going to show up with that cup of tea? Are you really going to do the other parts of our relationship? Because when we were having sex and then life got busy, you took all those things away from me. You stopped doing that. And I don’t trust that that part of our relationship is coming back just because I started having. In fact, we have sex every now and then. And the next day you don’t follow up with

Thomas Westenholz (19:26.978)
Yes.

Michael Preston (19:40.326)
the cup of tea or the doing the engaging in the part of the relationship that I need as well.

Thomas Westenholz (19:44.75)
And you know what, and this is so important what you’re saying, because I think this is what’s hard for people to understand is how these two nervous system respond and process the world very, very differently. Because somebody more avoidant don’t necessarily need that. They can just go and have the physical gratification, as you said, just eat the cake. They can just have the physical gratification and that in itself is fine.

Michael Preston (19:54.654)
very differently

Michael Preston (20:01.344)
Big yeah? How big do you?

Thomas Westenholz (20:06.626)
Cause that’s how their nervous system respond to the world. And it’s often very based on need, the gratification of different needs, right? They don’t need that emotional depth as much because it’s not what they experienced. But on the other side, you have a nervous system that process very differently, right? And where you have to understand that sex doesn’t start when you’re in the bedroom or wherever you might do it. But when the act starts, it starts all the time. It’s there. So I don’t really like the term foreplay, but just to make it easier to grasp.

Michael Preston (20:08.544)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (20:26.804)
Right, right, right.

Michael Preston (20:35.006)
Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Thomas Westenholz (20:35.918)
4Play starts way before you’re in the bedroom. Yeah, it starts pretty much all the time because it’s in the… Yes, but it’s showing… It could be that too.

Michael Preston (20:41.6)
I was going say it starts in the kitchen, right? And I don’t mean on the kitchen table. I mean, it starts like with, it could be that too, which is a lot of fun, but it starts with cutting the carrots, right?

Thomas Westenholz (20:53.686)
Yes, because it starts by showing, I care, you matter, right? And that’s often what goes missing. And what’s confusing maybe for the more avoidant is, you know, they might show up with flowers and think, I don’t fall play, right? Or, or I coddled you a bit and why can we not have sex? And as you said, they might take it personal and think, she doesn’t want me or I’m not desirable. And that start impacting their sense of self, their confidence and all these parts, right? Which can be very devastating for them because that’s how they interpret it.

Michael Preston (21:06.56)
That’s right, that’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (21:22.936)
They don’t see that it’s not something that happened five minutes before you’re gonna have sex. It’s for them day to day, seeing an action, hey, I care, I was thinking about you, I made an effort for you. And that’s why the dishes, just as one example, could have that impact because it’s not doing the dishes, it’s telling them, hey, we’re here together, yeah? And that for them is part of keeping their sexual response online. And when that is taken away again and again and again,

Michael Preston (21:27.402)
Yeah. Right.

Michael Preston (21:51.752)
It goes off.

Thomas Westenholz (21:51.788)
and they feel alone and that they don’t matter, their sexual response shut down. And it’s not about you. It’s about how you engage with it because for you, is just something, hey, okay, I feel horny now, so why can’t we do this physical thing? Or I got you flowers, so hey, I was romantic. But they miss that, you know, all these other parts that kind of fuels the engine, right? They think that I don’t have to, you know, screw on the wheels. I just put petrol on and then the car should drive.

Michael Preston (22:03.722)
Yeah. Yeah. That’s right. That’s right.

Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Preston (22:17.872)
That’s Yeah, that’s right. No, I like that example, right? It’s like, I put if I put petrol in the tank, if I put gas in the tank, the car should go. But the reality is, maybe for some time, but if it’s all you ever do, it will you won’t have a car for long. You have. Right. Look at the oil. Right. And nothing, nothing in life works that way. Everything is heading like towards

Thomas Westenholz (22:34.446)
That’s right. You never change the tires. You never check the suspension. You never change the brakes. Then eventually it’s going to go bad.

Yes.

Michael Preston (22:46.88)
degradation, right? You put brand new wood up around your windows. It will rot eventually, right? You’ve got to take care of it. And this is kind of, so let’s name a few things here, right? I want to be really clear and slow down and say, the sexual withdraw, the partner that in bed rolls over and says, I’m tired tonight.

Thomas Westenholz (22:53.038)
Yes.

Michael Preston (23:09.436)
Often that moment gets taken as rejection and we’ll talk about that side in a second. But what we’re talking about is the tank is empty sexually because the moments of connection, all the other times aren’t there. Right? I don’t feel my partner is present at home. How can I want to be present in the bed with my partner if they can’t be present with me sitting on a couch? Right?

If that’s, if that’s where we are. So that’s, so I want to say to say a couple of things, right? So toss this back and forth. What are some things that if a partner would like their partner to be more sexually engaged, what are some things that they need to pay attention to? What are some things that they can do in the relationship that might also help their partner come more forward sexually? You start with one and I’ll say one.

Thomas Westenholz (24:02.062)
Yes, you know what, think this is fascinating because it’s so extraordinarily simple when you hear it. And yet it can be very, very difficult when we haven’t had a framework for how this looks like, But often, and it sounds almost absurd to say it, but it’s being fully present with your partner. So that could be simply as you come home to sit down and say, hey, how was your day?

Michael Preston (24:10.111)
I

Michael Preston (24:22.72)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Preston (24:29.717)
Mmm.

Thomas Westenholz (24:30.062)
Or you see them distressed and saying, Hey, I can see this is becoming really overwhelming. Is there a way I can support you here now?

Michael Preston (24:36.798)
You would have to be really present and know your partner well to pick up on a cue, a stress cue, and then to go not what’s wrong with you, right? Or why are you snapping at the kids like that, right? But to see that as a cue of their distress for the day and come over. And what you’re saying is come over and caringly inquire and say, hey, how are you doing today? How was your day? Where do you need me right now?

Thomas Westenholz (24:40.748)
Yes.

Exactly.

Thomas Westenholz (24:47.64)
Yes.

Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (24:54.349)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (25:00.194)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (25:04.3)
Yes, that’s right. And that sends a message. You matter to me. And for that, in that response, even though it might not seem logical right now when you hear it, it’s part of their sexual response because an I matter, there’s also, okay, I want to share myself with the person who I matter to. But if I feel I don’t matter again, then I don’t want to share my body anymore.

Michael Preston (25:08.138)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Preston (25:19.53)
Yeah. Yeah. That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (25:28.002)
Right? So even though it might seem completely disconnected for some people listening and they’re like, how does this connect with sexuality? It very much does. Because this message is what allow their body then to respond to you at a later stage, right? When they feel, hey, you care. So it sounds very simple, but as you said, and I mentioned, it can be complex to implement because we might not have learned how to read these cues. We might interpret that snappy, hey, why you’re not helping with the kids as an attack on us. And then we might get angry or why draw, right?

instead of seeing, this person is overwhelmed.

Michael Preston (25:59.424)
All right. So let’s take what you’re saying and go one step further. You go to bed.

You see your partner there, you snuggle up to them, right? You put their hand along their side, right? And you feel them kind of move a little bit away and say, I’m sorry, I’m tired. Now we have, this is choice time, right? That’s a cue. And you’re saying looking at these cues and responding in a particular way. Normally the rejected part of us goes away, rolls over, right? And then

angry and this doesn’t work. What would be a response right in that moment that might help the other partner not like, I’m not giving this version of like, look, find another doorway, buddy. I’m saying how could they respond in that moment that would help fill that tank so that maybe on another night, a sexual pass is successful.

Thomas Westenholz (27:01.048)
Yes. So this is a really good question. And I think I just have to say the answer depends on the dynamic, right? That’s just, because as an example, if we have a normal, yeah, I thought totally, I’m just saying if you have a secure dynamic, it could be one person is just really tired, right? But we are, but we are talking more about an ongoing pattern, right? But we are talking, it’s not just a one off, right? Where maybe I work till 11 o’clock and actually I just am too tired. My body’s

Michael Preston (27:07.668)
Sure, of course.

Yeah, but with broad strokes though, right?

Michael Preston (27:16.992)
for just being.

That’s right. That’s right. Yes. That’s what we’re talking about. Right. Right.

Michael Preston (27:26.932)
Right. Yeah.

Thomas Westenholz (27:28.002)
We are talking about when there has been pervasive patterns of this happening here, right? So that’s my presumption when I answer this question. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So if it’s like this pervasive pattern, again, what I would do, and I know this again might be hard to do when you take it personally and think, this is a rejection again, you want me and you feel really bad. But instead, we could say, hey, we don’t have to have sex tonight, but tell me how was your day?

Michael Preston (27:31.968)
That’s right.

Yes, we’re talking about a pervasive pattern, for sure.

Michael Preston (27:54.56)
Hmm. Hmm.

Thomas Westenholz (27:56.386)
I would love to hear before we go to sleep. And then you back off a little bit that says, Hey, I hear that your body isn’t ready for this right now. That’s listening to the cue, right? And understanding there’s something else that has to happen here before. I can’t just jump, right? You can’t skip it. It’s almost like you want to jump straight. want to win the marathon, but I don’t want to run the, the, the whatever 30 miles, right? I want to jump straight to the finish line. That’s just not how it works.

Michael Preston (27:58.954)
Allah

Michael Preston (28:04.288)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (28:12.096)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Preston (28:22.154)
That’s right. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Thomas Westenholz (28:24.226)
You have to run the 30 miles to get to the end, right? So I would back off because that says, Hey, I hear you. I respect you. Yeah. And then I would recognize that there’s an unfulfilled need if this happened again and again and again, which tend to be an emotional need. Right. So that’s what I would do. And I realized that is very hard to do in the moment when we feel rejected.

Michael Preston (28:33.28)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (28:47.326)
That’s right. So I love that. Right. I love that you’re saying check in and this is something that’s really important. I think it’s like, this is just me. Right. But in that moment, I don’t want to have sex with someone that doesn’t want to have sex. That doesn’t sound like an enjoyable experience for anybody involved. Right. And so oftentimes, you know, when there is a partner who’s going, I’m not in, I’m not, that’s not where I am. And I go, well, then we’re going to figure out a way to help you move.

towards that place in a way that feels good to you. Because when you have a sexual relationship that works for both partners and you have a successful way of doing that, then both people are enjoying it. And the thing about how often couples have sex, you know the best predictor of how often couples like having sex?

Thomas Westenholz (29:38.446)
Well, their bond, basically.

Michael Preston (29:40.856)
Yeah, their bond. They both report enjoying it. And the more sex they have, the more sex they have. Like having sex a day in the week and it’s enjoyable for both of you and both parties are interested in both parties are there, Predicts having sex again that week. And if you have sex again that week, it predicts having sex again in a fee- like it creates its own, it feeds its own self when both parties are

Thomas Westenholz (29:59.576)
Yes.

Michael Preston (30:09.97)
enjoying themselves. Right? So having sex with your partner because it’s been a while, but they’re not really into it, is not going to feed the sexual relationship in a way that you end up having more sex anyways. It’s actually working against you. When your partner isn’t interested, but doing it because we haven’t done it in a while, it predicts less sex, like the gap grows more. So you are working against yourself when you’re just doing it

And it’s like, well, finally, I guess we’ll do it because it’s the one time a month we get to do it. And it’s like, if we could work on bringing both people to the table. And I think what you’re naming is really important because you’re going in this moment, you can name, you can say to your partner, we don’t have to have sex. What I do want to know is how you are. Well, how was your day? Why are you tired? I mean, obviously we’re going to bed, but like, maybe it’s early, whatever it is, right? What has you so tired these days? Let’s talk about it. I’m going to offer you another one.

Thomas Westenholz (30:54.328)
Yes. And you know,

Thomas Westenholz (31:02.232)
Yes.

Yes, that’s right. well, I just think, you know, what’s really fascinating is that often what can happen in this dynamic is that, you know, couples can go into let’s find the bad guy or the bad one. Right. And then, then it either becomes, but you never want sex. Right. So, so basically making that person who is obviously emotional stuff feel bad, right. About criticize them because we feel hurt or it could be the other way around where it becomes internal blame. Right.

Michael Preston (31:09.312)
Go ahead.

Michael Preston (31:18.976)
That’s right. Somebody’s at fault here.

You

Michael Preston (31:33.311)
That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (31:33.676)
where they say something is wrong with me, right? She doesn’t want me that I’m not good enough, I can never get it right. And then I pull completely away. So that’s an internal attack on self, right? So very often they become either the externalization attacking the other person, right? Or attacking self. And that’s missing what we are describing here, which is a cycle of starvation that over time, we saw unintentionally. So actually there is no bad guy to find.

Right. But part of the destructive cycle is that often we have the need to find somebody who we feel cause, were the cause of the problem, right. Which either become externalizing the frustration or internalizing it to itself.

Michael Preston (32:02.624)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (32:11.145)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Preston (32:14.592)
That’s right. So I’m looking at our time and I’m thinking, you know what, is going to be, this is probably, let me know what you think about this. So we’re to pivot live here on the show. If, if you’re listening in, probably don’t have like this episode is going to go way beyond if we try to do both sides today. So here’s what I’m thinking. Let’s stay on the one side. And then the next, the next episode, the very next episode that comes out will be the other side to give, to give this topic a bit more, uh,

Thomas Westenholz (32:31.011)
Yes.

Michael Preston (32:45.169)
space, the bit more space that it needs. Does that sound good to you? Okay. All right. So we’re staying, we’ll stay on the, on the, on the one that needs the emotional connection first, right? That’s what we’ve been talking about, right? And you even said something a second ago, like when the partner goes, you never want sex, right? And so what we’re trying to consider, right, are things that that partner can do to begin to help their partner feel more sexually engaged in the relationship and you’re naming checking in.

Thomas Westenholz (32:47.746)
Yeah, let’s do it. What side are we picking today?

Thomas Westenholz (32:55.374)
Cool. Let’s do it.

Michael Preston (33:11.136)
Just a second ago you’re saying it sometimes it feels like they never want to have sex and I’m thinking about it’s like walking out to your car and Trying to start it and not putting any petrol in it not putting any gas in it Right and then kicking the car right kicking the tire and saying you never start but the get but the tank is empty and then walking away and the other and the cars going I Don’t have anything to get started with here, right? So

Thomas Westenholz (33:34.796)
Yes, always like saying the car doesn’t like me, right? The car doesn’t like me. That’s why I won’t stop.

Michael Preston (33:38.024)
And the car doesn’t like me. That’s right. It all hits. So we’re going to explore more about what that’s like because that’s an awful experience. We really want to validate that on the other side of this is pain on pain on pain and loneliness and loneliness. But we’ll get that to that in our next episode. I want to offer another thing we can do. So this is something that I do talk about a lot and I think it’s really important, which is non-sexual physical touch. Okay?

Thomas Westenholz (33:53.742)
Let’s do it.

Michael Preston (34:08.178)
So often sexual pursuers will touch their partner as their way of sending the signal, right? Is it time? so every, so touch becomes pressure, right? Touch becomes this thing that’s like, shit, here we go again, right? And so that in a relationship, if that’s the only way I’m trying to communicate, right? Then we have

a message of love that’s getting mixed with expectation and pressure. So I want to consider, right? Like, just for example, like if that’s me and my wife and she’s tired for the day and I check in and say, how you doing? I’m really tired. Yeah, you’ve had a lot going on, right? Validating it. You’ve had a lot going on. We have three kids.

You have a full-time job. I work full-time. We are constantly running in the other direction. Just literally, just last night, down to bed, my wife is exhausted, I’m exhausted, and my wife, she rolled over to me and she said, I love that I get to end my day here with you, which is really sweet, right? And I said, yeah, me too. I love that my day begins with you as well in this body.

And then I went, but it is kind of like our only time to hang. Like this is it, because everything else, right? And so when she says, I’m tired, I say, of course you are, right? And then I asked her another question. said, is there anywhere that you have that, like, do you feel tense anywhere? And she’ll say, usually her shoulders or her calves. And then I’ll say, can I offer you massage? And she’s never said no, right? But it isn’t.

Can I get you in the mood? It’s literally, can I help you with the tension you’re carrying? Right? And that’s it. It is a genuine offer of myself to non-sexual physical touch, which is this touch is just to express love and care. So that’s in the bed, right? That’s as the tired thing going, but it also applies to when I come home.

Michael Preston (36:34.208)
Right? When you come home and check with your partner, cause some partners are overly touched by the children and they don’t want any more touch. And that’s totally understandable. Again, it’s all about the ability to conversate about these, how old the conversation, but if you can begin building non-sexual physical touch, like sweet hand on the back, right? As you walk in the door and say, Hey, how are you love? It’s good to see you. Those send messages that touch is safe again.

Thomas Westenholz (37:02.626)
Yeah. And this is an important point because in these dynamics we’re talking about, of course, it doesn’t apply to all dynamics, but what we’re talking about specifically right now, often there also has to be rebuilt trust. So it’s even really good to maybe say, Hey, for a while, we’re not going to go for sex because there’s often been the pressure on one of the partners in this dynamic for a while. So they become even more resistance to it, right. And shut down completely.

Michael Preston (37:22.976)
That’s right. Right.

Thomas Westenholz (37:27.532)
So it can be really good to take it off and because just for saying, hey, we’re taking it off the table for a while and just doing normal touch and we’ll be talking that slowly allow their body to rebuild trust, right? And take away this pressure because pressure also doesn’t allow the river to flow. That also shuts down sexual, you know, energy when we go into pressure. So

Michael Preston (37:41.952)
It doesn’t help. Yeah.

Michael Preston (37:47.36)
I mean, anyone suffering from ED will tell you like that pressure, that anxiety of getting it right in this moment is going to, it does not help. Right? So if it’s, if that, if it’s always pressure around sex, right? If I’m, if I’m always chasing my partner and they’re always having to say no, if that’s the dynamic you are in, which most people are, that’s a pressure cooker.

Thomas Westenholz (37:50.231)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (37:54.1)
Absolutely. Exactly.

Thomas Westenholz (38:03.118)
Yes. That’s right. And you need to take that pressure off to even start rebuilding that trust. Right. And even though I know we’re not going into attachment injuries today, that’s a whole nother episode. But I just want to mention because it can impact sexuality a lot. that could, you know, even recently I had a few of these instances in my office where, you know, there has been a miscarriage as an example.

Michael Preston (38:09.749)
Got to.

Michael Preston (38:15.648)
Yeah, we have an episode planned for that. We’ll get there.

yeah.

Michael Preston (38:29.984)
Mm-hmm.

Thomas Westenholz (38:30.944)
And the person weren’t able for whatever good reason to be there. Maybe they were on a work trip, whatever, they just were not able to be there in that moment. And there was so much distress that the woman held on their own. And so there was a shutdown afterwards in the body where they would say, suddenly we used to have good sex life, but the last year, you know, she didn’t want me to touch her and she almost feel adverse and I feel horrible and that, that, that, and we won’t go into that because that’s another episode, but I just want to say attachment injuries can have a huge impact.

Michael Preston (38:37.568)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Preston (38:51.914)
Mm-hmm.

Thomas Westenholz (39:00.824)
when somebody felt, and with that we mean somebody felt left alone in a moment of big distress. And when that happened, there can also be a shutdown in the body. So just a short mentioning because it impacts and can impact sex life really severely.

Michael Preston (39:04.862)
Yeah, that’s right.

Michael Preston (39:13.94)
Of course. and, know, in all of those, having a baby can change the way a woman feels in her body, right? Can change, can change what feels good, what felt good before may not ever feel good again in a particular way. Right. And the ability to talk about that without taking it as rejection. And this is the, this is the other part, maybe of advice for those on the other side of this, right? Which is if

Thomas Westenholz (39:18.893)
Yes.

Michael Preston (39:43.04)
You know, if your relationship can build a conversation of what feels good and what doesn’t feel good, right? And I just say like, it’s…

What feels good is a moving target, but it doesn’t mean I don’t like you. It’s I don’t like that tonight for whatever reason. That doesn’t feel so good tonight. And I know that when, especially, I mean, after 17 years, we found the different groove of how to work through those moments, right? Really much more lovely and fluid way of moving through those moments. But man, when we first got married, if my wife said,

I don’t like that. It would be like, oh my God, you don’t think I know what doing. I mean, it was deeply personal.

Thomas Westenholz (40:27.266)
Yes. And that’s a very typical male response specifically, right? I think it doesn’t mean women don’t have it, but men often associate their identity and sense of worth with whatever they’re doing, right? It’s actually…

Michael Preston (40:31.272)
It is? Yeah.

Michael Preston (40:40.64)
This is the one thing we’re supposed to be good at, right?

Thomas Westenholz (40:43.886)
Yes. And I think this is why I think that the two things, because I know we’re slowly, you know, going to wrap up the two things. One we discussed today is really about often when it has gone dry, it’s because the emotional cues have not been met for so long, right? For one of the partners, meaning they felt really alone. So it could be really helpful to take sex off the table for a little while, take away the pressure, pay more attention to the cues or where they need support when they’re in distress and how

Michael Preston (40:48.094)
Yeah, yeah, Yeah.

Michael Preston (40:57.706)
That’s right. That’s right.

Michael Preston (41:12.352)
Mm-hmm.

Thomas Westenholz (41:13.186)
You could potentially show up and show your care, right? So that’s one, that’s more the emotional side of this. then the, yeah. And the second part is also that a lot of couples don’t talk much about sex. And we know that people who talk more about sex actually tend to have much better sex. was very interesting because I read some research some years ago that they did on the kink community and they actually found out they have higher sexual satisfaction. And it’s not because they do kink.

Michael Preston (41:16.66)
Right.

Right. Responding to stress cues. Yeah.

Michael Preston (41:26.602)
I don’t

Thomas Westenholz (41:42.168)
that I don’t want to miss the point here. The reason is because they talk very openly about preferences and what they don’t like, right? Because you have to when it’s more extreme. And therefore they have much more honest, open conversations which tend to lead to better outcome. And that’s missed in a lot of relationships, whatever kind of sex you like. So it’s important to have these. But as you said, and highlighted, which is important, these conversations are very difficult because we have identified with this.

Michael Preston (41:46.602)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (41:52.245)
Sure.

Thomas Westenholz (42:10.06)
So we feel it’s a criticism of us instead of what it really is. It’s just them saying, for whatever reason, my body has changed. My response is different or different preferences. I don’t like this and it has nothing to do with you. Right?

Michael Preston (42:22.996)
has nothing, right? And I’m trying, like the follow-up there isn’t just, I don’t like that tonight, right? Please do tell your partner I don’t like that. If you don’t like it, again, what creates more sex in a relationship is two people coming to the table having sex and having a good time. They both wanna have more sex, right? So you have to say what doesn’t feel good and open a guidance towards it.

Thomas Westenholz (42:33.484)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (42:44.664)
Yes. Yes.

Michael Preston (42:51.85)
but this does feel good. Can you put your hand here? That feels really nice. And tomorrow, that might not feel so nice, but right now, what I know is that feels great. Can you keep doing that?

Thomas Westenholz (42:53.656)
Yes. Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (43:03.788)
Yes. And you exactly. I think, you know, when we have a safe space where it can be expressed, that’s how we get back to a good place. If we have the emotional side, right. But we still need to have these. And I think that the important part here, as we talked about where a lot of men specifically will take it personally, right. Is I remember a guy once who asked me, what is the best sex tip you have? Right. That was his question.

Michael Preston (43:11.498)
Right. That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (43:27.116)
And my answer was not what he expected because as men, often think it’s about some technique we have to learn or something typical male thinking, right? yes, whatever it is, right? Typical male thinking. Really is to be fully present so you can move to the responses you’re getting back and don’t take personal because if you can create a space where she feels safe and know that she can actually say, hey, this doesn’t feel that great. Could you try this?

Michael Preston (43:32.276)
Yeah. No, in my head it goes about four inches. Whatever.

Michael Preston (43:44.916)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (43:56.182)
and you don’t get upset, then you create an environment where you can really open conversations and you can get to a place where it’s probably the best encounters that she ever had over time,

Michael Preston (43:59.068)
Ooh, that is safe.

Michael Preston (44:04.96)
That’s right.

That’s right. If you are willing to listen to your partner say, that doesn’t feel good, but oh, that does feel good. And you will follow all the green lights they give you. Right? You will lead your partner to some of the best sex they’ve ever had because you’re following the green lights of their body. Okay. That’s really important. I think that’s going to be our third episode is how to have these conversations. Right? So this is going to turn into a sex mini series. I have a feeling because we’ve only just, we’ve only just talked about the partner.

Thomas Westenholz (44:14.061)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (44:17.784)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (44:22.476)
Yes.

Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (44:31.598)
Yes. Yes, it is.

Michael Preston (44:37.194)
who needs the emotional connection in order to fill the tank of their sexual connection. And we’re just talking to the partner who feels more sexually pursuing on how to begin to meet those needs to draw your partner back into a sexual relationship. People think it’s flowers. People think it’s roses. Like, no, that’s like setting a mood, but it doesn’t fill the tank. Okay? We’re talking about filling the tank so you can actually drive a sexual relationship somewhere. In our next episode, we will also take time to help the

Thomas Westenholz (44:47.854)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (44:57.474)
Yes, that’s right.

Michael Preston (45:07.39)
with the sexual withdraw, understand what’s happening on the other side. Why is your partner coming around more and more and more trying to get sex? And what is really behind chasing the partner sexually and not looking for an emotional connection? Like what is going on for that partner? And we will talk more about that in our next episode.

Thomas Westenholz (45:13.966)
That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (45:21.869)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (45:27.97)
my final note is just listen man, you don’t need to know what’s the right thing to do. All you need is to have the curiosity to discover. Yeah, that’s it. So

Michael Preston (45:29.162)
Go on.

Michael Preston (45:38.96)
Ooh. You know, you know when you talk about curiosity, that’s dirty talk.

Thomas Westenholz (45:45.966)
And we’re going to end it there. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for tuning in and we will see you guys next week.