Navigating Withdrawal in Sex

Michael Preston (00:07.902)
All right, welcome back to Couples in Focus. My name is Michael and I’m joined as always by Thomas. It’s good to see you again.

Thomas Westenholz (00:17.15)
You too. And yeah, I’m looking forward to the, I guess, the sequence that we’re doing now on sexuality, which is really fascinating topic that I think just way too often is overlooked in these conversations, right? So I’m excited about this episode.

Michael Preston (00:29.388)
Yeah. Absolutely. Me too. Me too. You know, last week we talked about the sexual dance that couples get into. And we talked about the, on the one side, the sexual withdrawer, just for clarity sake, right? We’ve got the pursuer-withdrawer dynamic that we talk about a lot in the emotional dance and the conversational dance and the argument that couples can get into. And then we’ve got the sexual dance that couples can get into and everything

is in generalities here. We’re trying to speak to the most largest group. So not everyone’s going to follow this exact pattern. But in general, when we have the emotional pursuer, which is the anxiously attached, they’ll also be the sexual withdraw. It flips on its head. then vice versa, we’ve got the emotional withdraw, the avoidant attachment partner who

sexually will begin to pursue their partner and that’s going to be where they get their connection but they become the sexual pursuer despite having an avoidant attachment. Right?

Thomas Westenholz (01:37.416)
Yes, that’s right. That’s right. And this can often become very confusing in the terminology, right? Because we’re used to talking about, as you said, the more anxious pursuing emotional connection, the more avoidant pulling away from emotional overwhelm. When actually now often sexually the cycle flips and they’re more emotional avoidant become the one pursuing physical contact and the more anxious one because feeling so neglected emotionally start pulling away and saying no, right? And pushing back against that.

Michael Preston (01:43.093)
Ugh. Yeah.

Michael Preston (02:03.939)
Turn.

Thomas Westenholz (02:05.31)
And why I think this can actually be helpful, even though I understand it’s a painful cycle for both partners, but I think it can be helpful to try and understand the other side’s perspective and what happens for them. Cause this is a place where suddenly it flips and then normally more emotional avoidance start getting this sense of how is it to feel rejected all the time and not wanted, which is what the more anxious pursuer in the emotional arena is getting a lot of, right?

So it can even help create a sense of understanding of what’s happening for the other person.

Michael Preston (02:36.27)
Absolutely. So we’re going to do that today. We’re going to spend a bit of understanding how a avoidant attachment style that is withdrawn emotionally, how do they find themselves pursuing sexually and why is that important to them? How does someone get to that place? And then we’re going to go through the same moment, the same moment we talked about in the previous podcast, the roll away, the not tonight. We’ll talk a little bit about that.

how that impacts the other side of the relationship. So we’re going to start there with those two topics and we’ll keep flowing. All right? Great. Well, let’s go ahead and let’s get started.

Thomas Westenholz (03:13.736)
Yes, amazing. Let’s dive in. So I guess the first part you talked about here was, well, how do we get to this place? Right. And we probably have to really wind the movie back way, way back, right? Because really it starts with these patterns of learning how to respond and how our nervous system respond to the external world, right. And how we then internalize and what, as we talked about before often happened for the more avoidant

Michael Preston (03:22.498)
Yeah.

Michael Preston (03:26.441)
Yeah.

Thomas Westenholz (03:42.142)
partner attachment style is that they learned that emotions can very quickly become overwhelming because nobody came to soothe them and help them soothe it, right? So it will become overwhelming and very quickly that stress become too much. So I learned to shut it down. So I don’t like too much emotions anymore. Really. I don’t like, I don’t have a roadmap for how it even look like to respond to somebody else’s emotion or even anticipate that they could respond to mine. That’s very like a foreign language, right? It’s like Chinese to me. So

Michael Preston (03:56.6)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Preston (04:09.634)
Mm-hmm.

Thomas Westenholz (04:12.092)
When they are in this place, they say, hey, I can’t fully trust others. can trust myself. So emotionally, I’m not going to put myself out there. Right. And I don’t really know how it looks like anyway, how to do that for somebody else. However, at some point, as I slowly grow up, we start becoming sexual beings. Right. And they start realizing, hey, this kind of feels good. Right. And not only does it feel good, but also actually this can help me soothe my stress. I feel a bit less stress after I do this activity. Right.

Michael Preston (04:19.757)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Preston (04:33.027)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (04:41.454)
That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (04:41.852)
So that becomes a bit like we have lots of ways that we deal with stress day to day, right? Some people start being watching on Instagram, some people watch pornography, but we all use different strategies of how we soothe our stress. And this become one of the ways that the avoidant can then of course get pleasure, but also help them soothe the stress that often can be very difficult to be with, which is why the physical part often is something that’s very, very important for the more avoidant attachment styles, right?

Michael Preston (04:47.202)
Mm.

Michael Preston (04:53.814)
Yeah, that’s right.

Michael Preston (05:06.99)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (05:11.637)
Mm-hmm.

Thomas Westenholz (05:11.966)
And often they can be physical without needing the emotional connection. Right? Because that’s what they learned in this model of the world.

Michael Preston (05:16.376)
That’s right.

Well, because the emotional connection wasn’t going to be there. Right. So that wasn’t a place they learned how to get soothed or that that would even be a good thing to try. So they didn’t build that muscle. But, know, I want to plus it because what you’re saying is really important. You’re you’re talking about. What we normally hear in like a cultural narrative of because again, we’ll talk in generalities, but this does by no means does this not mean it women can’t be.

sexual pursuers or avoidant attachment. But a lot of men end up with avoidant attachment. primarily, I would say, my avoidant clients are men. And what we often hear in the cultural narrative is they’re just, they have high libido and they’re just horn dogs, right? They’re just sexual crazy cavemen. And we’re actually adding a little bit of a nuance to that and saying, actually,

in a world where their emotional needs weren’t going to be met, right? Because we think about, we’ve named this before, even as a father, for the last 50 years, you can respond differently to your daughters as you would your sons, right? Fathers would often allow their daughters to feel, give them hugs, say it’s okay. Not every father was that way. But then that same father could turn to his son and be like, hey man, up. Like grow up. Like stop the crying. Like it would be the same dad, but a different message for the son, right?

keep packing away those emotions, don’t bring them out. And then you get into your teenage years. And what you’re naming is more than just, they’re sex-crazed beings. You’re actually saying this was a way to begin to calm what had never been calm before. This became a way of regulating stress. so if that’s the only, what’s the saying? If the only tool you have is a hammer, everything becomes a nail.

Thomas Westenholz (07:11.806)
Yes, that’s right.

Michael Preston (07:12.238)
If this is it, if this is the only way we can calm our nervous system, or the only tool we’re given for even the emotionally, physically, humanly connection we’re looking for, it’s all put into one basket, which is sex. Because we get physical connection, we get emotional connection through sex, and we get that human-to-human experience. But for many, that’s the only place they learn they could get all of that.

Thomas Westenholz (07:36.574)
That’s right, that’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (07:41.63)
And you know, you’re spot on. And what really helped me feel more compassionate was looking at it through this framework of saying, hey, there’s these different models of the world. And they were giving a model of the world that said, life is about survival and getting some pleasure on the way, because I can’t count on others. And then there’s another model which says life is about connection and, you know, building that teamwork with other people, right? And we know which one is more nurturing to live in. actually,

Michael Preston (07:57.304)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Michael Preston (08:03.896)
Hmm.

Michael Preston (08:07.884)
Yeah.

Thomas Westenholz (08:10.576)
It’s a really hard world that they often live in because their framework of the world was there’s only one person I can count on and that’s me. So that’s all I’m going to rely on myself and I’m going to try and get some pleasures to get through this life. Right. So there’s a bit of joy in life. So often they can be pleasure seekers in different ways, you know, where they primarily focus on that. And it’s not because they’re bad people. It’s because when you have this framework, then why would you?

Michael Preston (08:17.986)
Mm-hmm.

That’s right.

Michael Preston (08:36.865)
and

Thomas Westenholz (08:40.168)
try and engage more emotionally with other people. That would make no sense because in their framework, the only possible outcome is, well, feeling more overwhelmed, feeling more shut down, feeling more rejected, feeling worse about who they are as a human being. So of course they don’t do that, right? And then we still have to somehow get gratification. And while some of us can also get that through emotional connection with others, they have to, of course, fill that basket up more.

Michael Preston (08:51.075)
Yeah.

Michael Preston (08:56.024)
Yeah, right.

Thomas Westenholz (09:07.57)
with these different physical sensations, whatever they might be, massage, sex, right? So this is why this is so critical. And I think what made me then feel compassionate with this view is now understanding that when that, and again, as I said, you know, that doesn’t mean anybody should ever have sex if they don’t want to. However, just having an understanding of how devastating it can be for them when this is taken away, right? We had talked a lot about for the anxious person that when the emotional connection is taken away, how distressing that is, but for the avoidant.

Michael Preston (09:08.301)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Preston (09:11.918)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Preston (09:25.134)
course.

Michael Preston (09:30.446)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (09:36.652)
Mm-hmm.

Thomas Westenholz (09:36.882)
This can be very similar when the physical aspect is taken away. is like, this is one of the key things I was using to fill up my basket. They give me the fuel to go out and do this thing called life. And now it’s not there. And now I feel worse about myself too, because maybe I’m getting rejected. She doesn’t even desire me. And then that cycle starts for them, right?

Michael Preston (09:44.654)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (09:48.878)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (09:59.214)
That’s right. That’s right. Now that makes a lot of sense. What we were talking about.

In our other podcast, we named the dilemma. So I’m going to go a little bit out of, I’m going to bring this up before I was planning on bringing it up. But we go into that dilemma, right? Where emotional connection, it’s not available to the partner. Right? It’s that foreign language. It’s the thing that they don’t know how to do what to do, but they also know that there is no good move. And we talk about that a lot in EFT is for the avoidant finding a way to emotionally connect.

when it feels clunky and they don’t know what they’re doing. And then they try something, but it’s not the right thing. Right. And then they get the feedback that, you didn’t do it right. You didn’t say it right. You know, I’ve watched, I’ve watched this TikTok video the other day where it was like, here’s a fight that happened between this couple. And the TikTok person said, you know, that could have all been avoided if you just would have said, and I’m like, do you know how hard that is to get right?

That is, that’s such a, that’s such a pursuer thing to do, right? Which is like, if you just would have said it this way, then we wouldn’t have had a fight. And it’s like, man, that’s so hard to navigate. Right. But that’s what, that’s what the avoidant, the avoidant partner is getting that message all the time. Right. If, if I come this way, it’s not quite the right way. If I stay away, that’s not the right thing. If I come try this way, that’s not the right thing. And so they get into no good move to bridge that gap.

Thomas Westenholz (11:11.08)
Yes, it is.

Thomas Westenholz (11:22.643)
Yes.

Michael Preston (11:27.916)
And so they stay away, but then the only way that they know how to get that connection is through sexuality. And so that’s where they begin to turn because that’s, then eventually that becomes its own bad move because we end up in that situation that we were talking about last in our last podcast, which is coming to bed and then you get the roll away, right?

Thomas Westenholz (11:44.21)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (11:54.098)
Yes.

Michael Preston (11:54.294)
And we named a bit about how the roll away, what’s happening for the one rolling away saying not tonight. But now let’s take a second to just talk about the impact that that roll away begins to have, right? When everything in our relationship, right? All that connection, all that stress kind of comes down to this moment. And it’s a buildup moment, right? You can believe your avoidant partner has been thinking about this, right? It’s not been voicing this, right? But just been thinking about this moment.

Right. And maybe looking for cues throughout the evening, right? Okay. She didn’t seem too angry tonight or.

Michael Preston (00:16.603)
All right. Well, sorry about that. We are we’re back and just had a massive technical difficulty, but we’re back and we were naming this particular moment for the withdraw. Right. When their partner rolls away and they say not in the mood once again, the withdraw will have been thinking about this.

Thomas Westenholz (00:28.916)
Yeah.

Yes.

Michael Preston (00:39.306)
reach, by the way, right? they’ll be thinking things like, yeah, I swept the floors tonight. Right. They’ll be thinking, look at the things that I did. Ooh, I’ve made sure my towel was hung up after my shower. I know things like, that’s the thing they’re looking for. So they’re going in with feeling like they’ve probably set the stage enough, but then it’s again, another moment where it doesn’t work.

Thomas Westenholz (01:01.844)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (01:09.117)
Yes.

Michael Preston (01:10.036)
and the crest fallenness that becomes this moment for them and the messages that begin to stir. As I think of one, and I want to hear one from you, Thomas, which is something must be wrong. My partner must not desire me. Maybe I’ve put on weight, maybe I’m balding, maybe I’m all these things. All of those insecurities start to bubble up right there. Like this is definitely something about me.

Thomas Westenholz (01:26.931)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (01:38.644)
Yes, yes. I think there’s insecurity coming up, which is probably the key part that starts in the beginning. And eventually that moves into a sense of hopelessness almost, because it’s like, I can’t get this right. So I don’t know this Chinese language that I’m supposed to speak called, you know, emotions. and that is really hard. And, you know, I can see that caused the stress a lot of the time.

Michael Preston (01:53.976)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Thomas Westenholz (02:04.916)
But I feel that at least this is a language I kind of knew how to speak, right? And I’ve done it and I feel I’m quite good at it. And, you know, that makes me feel I have a value as a human being that I’m desirable. And now I get this message again and again that also here I’m not wanted. And at some point, if we continuously are just told you’re in the wrong, you’re in the wrong, you’re in the wrong again and again, the natural conclusion for any

Michael Preston (02:17.006)
Hmm.

Michael Preston (02:27.879)
Okay.

Thomas Westenholz (02:32.475)
reasonable organism would be to say, then I’m going to stop altogether. Right. But I think what you’re talking about is before we get to that point, which has a long painful process, a bit like it often is for the emotional pursuer, right? Where they will maybe turn up the volume, eventually give up. Right. But I think often the more avoidant partner that pursues sexually is not necessarily always going to turn up the volume. They are often instead going to respond in a different way where they internalize that suffering.

Michael Preston (02:37.2)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Preston (02:57.073)
Yeah. Yep. Yep. Right.

Thomas Westenholz (03:01.714)
And that’s what’s very different, right? Because actually often we think that they don’t feel the suffering, the rejection, the anxiety, right? Because we don’t see it externally. It doesn’t become a loud rock band that go through the house, but it’s a silent, often a silent suffering. So they might not get angry. They might not, you know, start, they definitely probably will not tell you how much they’re suffering. It becomes an internal where slowly they start feeling worse and worse about who they are.

Michael Preston (03:10.038)
Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Yep.

Michael Preston (03:30.21)
Mm-hmm.

Thomas Westenholz (03:31.772)
and start feeling their less and less worth, they will often come in and say, I feel less and less confident in myself, you know, the way I never, and that even emphasize even more this tendency to just want to get away because for a lot of avoidance, this sense of feeling inadequate was also a key part of how they grew up. Often they were criticized a lot or, you know, dismissed. So this feeling that I’m not, you know, I can’t get it right. I’m not enough.

Michael Preston (03:33.326)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (03:36.888)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (03:42.924)
Right. Mm-hmm.

Thomas Westenholz (03:58.364)
And this just sends that message every single time. And it’s not that you don’t have a right to say no to sex, but it’s that often it’s not communicating what’s actually happening, right? Instead, the distress cycle, like you said, become just turning away because inside the anxious emotional pursuer, often they’ve been hurt and then anger eventually builds up over time, right? And resentment. I’m not going to want to be physical when you never respond to me emotionally.

Michael Preston (03:58.37)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (04:04.451)
Yeah. That’s right.

Michael Preston (04:17.553)
Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Preston (04:24.258)
Right.

Thomas Westenholz (04:24.894)
So, but that doesn’t get communicated right until they come into our room, therapy room. But up until that point, often all the avoidant partner I’ve seen is I’m trying this thing that I do feel I know and that I can do well. But now even that I get the message that I can’t get right.

Michael Preston (04:37.112)
That’s right.

Right.

That’s right. Well, and the withdrawing partner, right? The avoidant, you’ll often hear them say some version of, don’t let people close because if they get too close and they get a look behind the curtain, they will see just how broken, how messed up, how damaged I am. Right. And so here is a moment where that’s going to get pinged.

pretty directly because of the vulnerability of a sexual relationship. Now, our avoidant partner might not know how to say that, right? But that’s where it gets pinged. like you were saying, the most externally you might see in these moments is going to be partner rolls over, says, not tonight. And then the other partner might get up and walk out of the room and kind of sigh, right?

That might be a way you could see it externally, but for the most part, they’re just going to silently suffer and not share. And it’s really unfortunate, right? Because right there in the moment when they begin to silently suffer and the messages that begin to stir for them is the moment they most desperately need their partner to see them. Right? But they have no tools because everything in their world said, when I start to feel this way,

Michael Preston (06:09.548)
The only person I know to trust is me. The only one. Like, I cannot. And if they’ve gone so far into the avoid it because it was so necessary, right? Because of big traumas in their life, they may not even realize how big of a devastation that they’re experiencing, right? It’s just another day. You know, it’s just another Thursday. And so, yeah.

Thomas Westenholz (06:28.276)
Kiss.

And I think, this is just so important what you’re saying, because I think often this is confusing for the more anxious pursuer to understand what’s happening internally. That often for the… And I’m trying to put myself in the shoes now, the avoidant partner, so I can kind of put that perspective across. It’s like when I’m in this place, right, then as you said, I don’t even know what’s going on, because the key thing that I learned to do to survive was to not notice. Yeah.

Michael Preston (06:49.506)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Preston (06:58.851)
That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (06:59.368)
Because when I notice it becomes overwhelming and dangerous. So I learned to not notice. So often, you know, these questions where maybe in in therapy we say, so what’s happening in your body for an anxious, sometimes they can say, I feel tension in my stomach or da da da, because they listen very loudly and often so much that, you know, that create a lot of distress for them. While you have here the avoidant who I don’t really listen to it. I don’t know what’s going on in my body. What are you even talking about my body?

Michael Preston (07:02.968)
Yes.

Michael Preston (07:13.089)
Yeah.

Michael Preston (07:24.782)
That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (07:28.372)
It’s like, again, very foreign. So you’re right. In this moment where actually they’re in the most distress, they can’t reach and say how devastating it is. So often over time in this silent suffering, instead they become part of their identity that actually I’m not desirable. Actually, I’m not wanted. And actually, what is my value here anyway? Because she’s angry with me all the time. I logically try to listen that she want me to do more of the dishes. But when I do,

Michael Preston (07:36.622)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (07:43.95)
That’s right.

That’s right. That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (07:57.596)
and then come for the way that I know my physical contact, it still gets rejected. And that’s pretty hopeless,

Michael Preston (08:01.1)
Yeah. That’s Yeah. Yep. And that’s, and that’s the, that’s the devastating part of a sexual cycle where there’s no conversation happening between them. And so oftentimes we talk about like in, when we talk about a sexual cycle, I say, what gets in the way of you two talking about this? Right? What happens right here in this moment? Nothing happens. Right? No one talks about it. No one says anything.

And so we become, and this would be for both parties, both of them end up silently suffering around their sex life. I’ve worked with so many couples where I say, you know, do you guys talk about your sex life? Nope. Nope. It’s just, we can’t talk about it at all. And oftentimes they’re kind of surprised to find out the other one’s even interested because the way that they both end up beginning to make sense of the lack of sex in there.

relationship is both of them end up holding that thing like something must be wrong with me, but we don’t talk about it. And we silently suffer around sex for a long time. And then we might blunder through it, you know, once every two months, but like, this is a pattern where we can’t talk about it. Therefore we can’t find a way through it. Right. And that’s a really, really important part of what keeps the sexual cycle alive is the inability to come and have a conversation.

because the only conversation around sex is, about tonight? Like that becomes the one way we could talk about it. And then if it’s a no, then it’s devastating. If it’s a yes, yeah, that might be okay. Maybe it’s good. Maybe it’s not so good. Maybe we get into it and, you know, we were talking about like last week, following all the green lights, right? And maybe we get into that sexual experience and something doesn’t quite feel good for the partner. And then boom, I must be doing it wrong.

Thomas Westenholz (09:37.46)
guess.

Michael Preston (09:57.454)
pull away again, shutting down again, and one part of you going, where are you going? And it becomes that inability to talk, the inability to say, no, that it doesn’t feel good today. But that doesn’t mean I don’t want you to try something else.

Thomas Westenholz (10:12.88)
And that’s, you know, this is important what you’re saying, because when the nuances we have to engage with this is yes and no, then of course a lot is going to get missed, right? And we are both going to feel alone. And we then again, because this is a meaning making organism, we have to make meaning out of that. And one side might make meaning of, he doesn’t really care about me. The other side might say, hey, she doesn’t really want me anymore. I’m not desirable. Because again, and the only reason, and this is where often

Michael Preston (10:33.538)
Mm-hmm.

Thomas Westenholz (10:41.118)
The less language we have to communicate, the more the other person have to make meaning out of what’s happening themselves. Meaning why the silence is so devastating. Because now you’re leaving it to the anxious pursuer mind to make meaning out of themselves and the avoidant to try and make meaning out of that. And based on their framework, this doesn’t tend to be positive interpretations of these events. Or it actually never is. I’ve never yet experienced that.

Michael Preston (10:48.461)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Preston (11:05.567)
It doesn’t. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Thomas Westenholz (11:09.01)
So it’s always going to be an interpretation of that something isn’t right with me, which is why they’re not talking about it. It’s so devastating.

Michael Preston (11:17.262)
Yeah, yeah, I often often say in these places with the couples I work with, as I’ll say some version of in the silence, the story takes on a life of its own. And I hear it’s not a fairy tale. Right. It’s a nightmare for both of you when there’s silence, right? The story doesn’t become kind and happy ending in our mind when we’re not talking to our partner about this. The story becomes a living nightmare, right? It’s an actual hell we’re living in.

but we don’t have a way to say to our partner, hey, this is what happens to me. Ooh, that didn’t feel good. Hey, can we try something else? We don’t have that conversation, right? And so let’s, I want to jump to for time sake, I want to jump to a dilemma that we do need to name. And then we’re going to come back and say, Hey, how can we open this door? Right? How can we open the conversation? But do want to name a dilemma that I think is really important for the avoidant partner.

who is the sexual pursuer, right? The avoidant attached sexual pursuer or all sexual pursuers in your relationships, right? There’s often this thing that we hear, which is I need a sexual relationship in order to engage emotionally. And then the other partner says, I need an emotional relationship to feel sexual. And there’s a dilemma that I think is so important to name, but it can be hard to take in.

So I want to say this with all gentleness and understanding that this can be hard to hear is that for the partner who is the emotional pursuer sexual, are, they will often engage sexually and meet that need for their partner.

And then maybe in the minutes afterward, right, that little glow period afterwards, get a bit of cuddling in and maybe some, hey, I love you, some kind of emotional vulnerability in that moment. Maybe their partner falls asleep in 18 seconds, right? But then over the next day and then the next day and then the next day, more often than not, the sexual pursuing partner

Michael Preston (13:33.41)
who has said, need a sexual relationship in order to engage emotionally, doesn’t end up engaging emotionally. And it sends a signal to their partner that says, even if we have a sexual relationship, I’m not going to get what I need in this relationship. And so it’s all about my partner, right? The sexual relationship about meeting that need doesn’t bring that person forward. Now there’s good reason for that, but I do want for those that…

that you have said, think about that for a second and go, huh, after a sexual encounter, after I have sex with my partner and that fills me up, do I then turn the next day into seeking moments of connection emotionally and giving my partner what they need, right? Does that coin actually flip well? And more often than not, I have seen that it doesn’t.

Thomas Westenholz (14:28.212)
Absolutely. And this, what you’re saying right now, is exactly why swapping needs and just focus on compromises alone doesn’t work. And you have just described why. Because saying, hey, OK, I give you a bit what you want, then you give me. Well, that doesn’t help the person speak a language that they never learned how to speak. They still don’t know how to speak this foreign language you’re speaking. So this is like part of coming into the therapy.

Michael Preston (14:34.638)
Doesn’t work. It doesn’t work.

Michael Preston (14:43.896)
Hmm.

Michael Preston (14:48.334)
That’s right. That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (14:55.088)
is learning and helping the partners how to speak a new language around this, right? So this is why you’re spot on that. I’ve always said some people who come to me have been to other kind of couple therapy before where they were like compromising and they said it didn’t really help. We don’t know. And I said, of course it doesn’t work. And you just pinpointed it, right? You said, so you necessarily trying to say if I give a bit of sex here, will I then get my emotional? No, in many cases, probably not. Right. Because this idea of just swapping

Michael Preston (14:58.958)
That’s right. That’s right.

Michael Preston (15:13.662)
Yeah.

Michael Preston (15:22.382)
That’s right.

No. John Gottman refers to it as a zero sum game. Nobody wins, right? We only feel the loss, right? If I give you this and you give me that in exchange for that other thing, then I won’t remember that you gave me this. I’m only going to remember that I didn’t get that. It just doesn’t work, right? And navigating things is difficult because we do have to, like there is give and take in relationships and there are all those things. But if it’s a swapping, well, I did this

Thomas Westenholz (15:25.436)
It’s not gonna work.

Yes.

Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (15:37.406)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (15:42.238)
Yes.

That’s right.

Michael Preston (15:53.976)
So you get that or you get that. I get this. That becomes a points and stacks and make sure they’re, you know, it’s a balance sheet. It’s a ledger in a relationship. And that ledger is so hard to keep like balanced at all. So that’s that, that is a really difficult one to navigate.

Thomas Westenholz (15:59.252)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (16:03.23)
Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

And that’s really the difference between I mentioned before the framework of having a survival framework of the world or connecting framework. Cause in a survival framework, it becomes about how can we exchange? You give me resource and you’re right, even in the connected framework, of course we exchange, but it doesn’t become something we are measure. It happened organically and naturally cause we both feel safe with each other and we both care about each other. Right? So it just happens. And this

Michael Preston (16:23.512)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (16:30.381)
Uh-uh.

Michael Preston (16:33.966)
That’s right. Yeah. Well, the relationship begins to feed the individual and therefore both individual, like their individualities are fed, like their individual needs are met. And the pattern becomes, ooh, I need this and they need that. Well, one of us can get what we need right now and one of us will get it later. We’ll figure that out. There’s no like concern around that, right?

Thomas Westenholz (16:40.744)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (16:45.908)
That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (17:02.547)
Yes.

Michael Preston (17:03.226)
I can give to the relationship because I know the relationship will give to me. It becomes its own feeding cycle. Like, okay, easy to give here because I know it gives back. When I don’t know that’s coming, then it becomes like, okay, I’m going to put this much in and wait until I get mine some back. So make sure that I get that back. And then maybe I’ll put a little bit more in, but then wait to see if I get more back. And that dicey game, it’s, I don’t know. That’s a…

Thomas Westenholz (17:07.444)
That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (17:31.324)
a loose loose like you said, and this is really because I forgot the name. was this, he’s a brilliant neuroscientist who written a book about trust. And what you were talking about really here is like, it comes down to trust. If I trust that you care about me and will reciprocate, I don’t need to keep tap of things. But the second I no longer trust that you will do, then it becomes this exchange, right? Then I have to keep tap. That’s right. So it really comes and that’s part of what we do, right? And what we do in our work.

Michael Preston (17:32.718)
It’s just loose, loose.

Michael Preston (17:43.235)
And then.

Michael Preston (17:52.108)
Then I’m keeping tabs. I’m keeping tabs. That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (18:00.016)
is we help reestablish the sense of trust that there can be mutual responsiveness. Because that’s the only place where we can get away from this exchange model, right?

Michael Preston (18:02.957)
Thank you.

Michael Preston (18:08.236)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. that’s what that’s what, so just like that’s what oftentimes the anxious attachment partner can try to do with sex, right? Is go, okay, I hear you, you need this and they try. And then it doesn’t come back. And really, really wanting to sit with like, that is a real thing that happens quite often.

and a reason why they stop trying sexually, because it doesn’t actually end up paying off in the end. They don’t get the emotional engagement. So I want for couples to be able to think about that dilemma and how, ooh, that could be playing into the messages behind sex. Like, it’s not going to work. I’m not going to get what I need. And it’s just going to be giving here. And then I’ll have to later on figure out my emotional need by myself too. So I want to move us on just so we can wrap up this episode, because we’re coming to our end of our time here.

And that would be to take a second and talk about how do we help open up a conversation from the avoidant attachment sexual pursuer side, where they are… How do we help them begin to name what happens to them? How do we begin to connect to that? We’ve got to look at this moment and zoom in. And we use the phrase a lot in EFT called slicing it thin.

So oftentimes the tricky thing is we can bite off more than we can chew. And then we just overwhelm, knock us out of our ability to talk about it. It’s too much. But if we look at this real small moment, we’ll give you a couple of prompts here to think about. And if you’re listening to this and some of this avoidant attachment sexual pursuer makes sense to you, just take a second and write down some of these questions. Maybe think through them to the best of your ability.

We’ll talk about sharing it with your partner for a minute, but it goes in this moment when your partner says not tonight, right? Or just, or you get in and you put your hand on their back and they just roll over immediately, right? In that moment, what message begins to stir? Does that hit personally? And then we just start broad stroke there, right? Does that feel good or does that feel bad? That’s where I often start with most of my,

Michael Preston (20:32.148)
avoidant clients who have a struggle. But is it a good feeling or a bad feeling? Right? It’s probably a bad feeling.

So if it’s a bad feeling, take a breath.

Michael Preston (20:47.702)
What do notice that bad feeling begin to say to you?

Michael Preston (20:53.346)
Maybe it says.

Something must be wrong with me.

Michael Preston (21:01.186)
David says.

I’ve been rejected again.

Michael Preston (21:09.218)
Maybe that bad feeling begins to question whether your partner loves you.

Michael Preston (21:21.538)
And then what do you notice yourself doing with that feeling and those thoughts? Where do they go? Do you roll over and close your eyes?

And what’s it like to be you with those thoughts rolling and nowhere to go with them? Do you get out of the room? Do you walk away?

Do you go get a sip of whiskey? Find somewhere to get some relief? you look at your phone and start scrolling through videos? In other words, looking for ways to help, how do you begin to manage that bad message that starts to stir?

Michael Preston (22:08.14)
And then here would be the risky part. Can you share that with your partner?

And you share that in a way that doesn’t blame them for all of it, but helps them know you more.

Michael Preston (22:22.776)
So Thomas, what would be the benefit of, if someone’s just kind of gone through those questions with me and they’ve been able to answer them real basically, what would be the benefit of them sharing that with their partner today?

Thomas Westenholz (22:35.294)
You know, that’s a good saying. If we keep doing what we always done, we’re going to get the same result. Yeah. So I get the strategies that people have and are sitting listening that worked for a while really well, but it’s not working right now. And that’s a painful part. So I think the benefit of this is it gives you a new way of engaging, of trying something new that probably feels really foreign. Yeah. Cause this is what’s probably the

Michael Preston (22:38.51)
Yeah.

Michael Preston (22:47.254)
Mm-hmm. That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (23:04.36)
biggest risk that we are asking you to do is to do the opposite of what you learned growing up. You learned, just rely on myself, we are asking you to look at what’s actually happening, which you learned to norm out what’s happening internally and then take the risk of sharing with someone else. And in the beginning, maybe you just write it down. That’s totally fine. Maybe you just share it with a therapist. Maybe you just share it with a friend.

Michael Preston (23:06.151)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (23:18.389)
Yeah.

Thomas Westenholz (23:31.462)
I get if taking that risk is simply too big a step in the beginning. But even starting to do this exercise, you build a new awareness. So you’re starting to listen to a system that has been ignored for a long time and give it a bit of soothing and attention, right? And then from that moment at some place, if it feels safe enough, then the benefit is that when we do that, we actually turn towards each other.

Michael Preston (23:41.254)
Mm. Mm. Mm.

Thomas Westenholz (23:59.528)
And we actually start doing the very core of what relating is about. It is about me sharing my internal world with you and you sharing your internal world with me. And if we have no idea what’s going on in that internal world, we can’t share it. And if we know what’s going on, but don’t share it, we can’t really relate. So what you’re saying here gives us a new option to actually build a whole new model of the world.

Michael Preston (24:03.845)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Thomas Westenholz (24:26.28)
which is the one I talked about, I said a connected model of the world that I can trust other people, but it’s slow and it’s small steps, right? And maybe even a last question, I think it’s already a lot, you know, what you gave them to do, but when they get used to that and they have practiced that a bit, maybe with a therapist first, maybe it’s too big to do with your partner straight away, I get that. But then maybe the last question become what’s happening?

Michael Preston (24:35.507)
Yeah.

Thomas Westenholz (24:53.52)
internally in your body right now as you notice this is going on. Because often that’s the first thing we shut down. Yeah, and that’s the first thing that was too overwhelming is even what’s happening. Is it tension in my stomach? Is it my jaw? And sometimes that can also give access to emotion that maybe we don’t have language for, right? Yet, which could be to just notice how is my body responding to this or is it contracting, right?

Michael Preston (25:01.23)
Yeah.

Thomas Westenholz (25:20.114)
What’s going on? And even that can be communicated. it’s really what you’re given here is a beautiful model of how to start creating a new model of the world. Right. And I think the benefit is that we can start elicit empathy in each other instead of eliciting a fight response. Right. And it’s basically creating peace instead of war to make it in more dramatic terms, right. In this little relationship dynamic.

Michael Preston (25:30.785)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That’s right.

Michael Preston (25:46.303)
Yeah, I love that. Even the idea of what you’re saying is even if you aren’t able to share with your partner, you are beginning to pay attention. You’re beginning to listen to a different language. And you’ve had a long term in your life where not listening has been the strategy for survival. And it’s like learning a new language. At first, it sounds really fast, but the more we tune into that new language, it begins to slow down and we begin to take it in.

And you know, you might share with your partner if you do take that step, which would be super cool. But you might find that your partner says, and this is what happens to me, when the only way you will engage is sexually. That I’m not a whole being to you. You might hear some, because this is going to go both ways. When we have these cycles, the hurt goes on both sides. And so do want to make some aware.

You might offer something to your partner, your partner might say, Hey, there’s a window to share. cause they’re more of the anxious sharing types. They’re going to jump on that train. So just, just something to be aware of. Right. But that would be, again, it’s a new step in the dance. Right. And anytime we try to change a dance, right. my wife and I, we did a salsa lessons together for a long time and I really love it. And, but I grew up doing swing dance and trying to get into salsa dancing, having done a lot of swing dancing and not being a like.

Thomas Westenholz (26:52.116)
Yes.

Michael Preston (27:13.16)
dancing type person. I stepped on my wife’s toes a whole lot and I wasn’t really good at first. Right. But doing something different, doing a new dance required me to try something that I wasn’t used to and I was clunky and it wasn’t, it didn’t go so well. Right. But we stayed in it and we practice it and we get a little bit better and a little bit better and a little bit better at it. All right. Well, we have to, we have to end here because we are going to be way over time.

Thomas Westenholz (27:38.484)
Yeah.

Michael Preston (27:42.638)
Go ahead.

Thomas Westenholz (27:42.676)
There’s one very quick note I want to say just might animal in because it’s almost sounds like a sales pitch for couple therapy. But I think one of the benefit of doing some of this after you’ve written it down in couple therapy is that sometimes if the anxious pursuer has built up a lot of anger and resentment, if you suddenly come and share something vulnerable, you might get a hostile response because it’s such a new message for them. And part of what we’re doing, couple therapies contain that, which can be hard at home. If this is the first time you’re vulnerable.

Michael Preston (27:49.032)
Hahaha!

Michael Preston (28:02.061)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Preston (28:05.902)
Absolutely.

Thomas Westenholz (28:12.51)
to then get hammered, that can be really, really harmful, right? I just want to say that, which is why often in carpal therapy, we are there to protect both people. So when this come out, the vulnerability happen and maybe there’s a hostile response, we can kind of protect you both a little bit, right? So I just wanted to put that in there.

Michael Preston (28:14.4)
It is. Yeah. Yeah.

Right.

Michael Preston (28:29.41)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it can happen, right? It can happen. then again, they’ll go back going, I listened to the dudes, the dudes told me this. And then it didn’t work and we’ll feel really bad about that. yeah, when we show up vulnerably in a relationship where we haven’t done that in a long time or ever, it can really jar our partner into, I don’t trust this.

Right. So don’t, don’t expect this to be something that you can keep getting and then putting walls up towards it because it would be, it would be too good to take it in and then not get it again. So there’s a lot of good reasons why partners do the things they do right on both sides. And so this is just a place to begin to explore the good reasons we’re doing what we’re doing, but also the hurt and the pain that we’ve caused along the way and we’ve experienced along the way. All right. That is it. We will see you all on the next time.