Understanding Communication in Relationships

Michael Preston (00:01.474)

So welcome back to Exploring Humanity. We are back again this week and Michael is here. We introduced him last week, our new co-host, and I’m super happy to have him on board. It’ll be really, I think, dynamic for the podcast and just also help us because he has a lot of experience, training, knowledge about emotional focus, couple therapy. And we look forward to also start getting questions sent in, which I’ll put an email below where you can send questions and then we’ll definitely try and answer some of them on the

podcast. So Michael, it’s awesome to have you here again today. It’s good to see you, Thomas. Yeah. And I think today we were going to dive a little bit in and just help. I think the audience understand a little bit more about, you know, what happens in EFT, why it can be beneficial and what are some of the common relationship issues that we are seeing, right? And hopefully that can spur people to also come up with some questions they want to ask us. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I’m looking forward to diving into that. Yeah. So I think maybe a good place, I don’t know where you want to start, but

You know, I’m curious about for you in your practice, like what are some of the common things that people normally come with? What do they normally say to you when they walk through the door? Hmm. Well, I mean, it won’t be any surprise to you, but the most common, the only, like if it’s not something major, like traumatic that has happened in their relationship, that’s thrown them into therapy. It’s communication, right? That is everybody comes in saying, we

don’t know how to communicate or we just aren’t communicating anymore. We’re bad at communicating, all those ways of saying essentially that we’re not talking like we used to. And I think you’re spot on in what you’re saying. And we obviously talked quickly about this before the recording is like you said, people will normally most of the time say it’s a communication issue. Right? Right. And then

I think the understanding of what that is might be different from the therapist perspective and the people coming into the session. Or as you said, if there’s some traumatic event, some kind of fracture that has happened, infidelity or whatever, could be a loss of a child, whatever it might be, some kind of trauma that had a major impact, right? Hospitalization. And you’re right. That’s pretty much what I would say as well is what is the most common. And maybe we can talk a bit about this then when people say communication issues, because people often will then come in.

Michael Preston (02:25.792)

And at least for me, see often it’s hard for them to describe exactly what it is. They will just say somehow, you know, we’re not really getting each other anymore. Right. And then, you know, I will try and get them to give me a specific example to try and understand and then deconstruct and see where this is happening. Right. But I just find it really fascinating because at least for me, and again, I want to hear how it is for you very often, you know, what we find in EFT is really when people say communication issue is that they’re missing

some underlying cues, right? Often some underlying emotional cues while often they will talk about the content, the logic, right? He doesn’t help enough or see he works too much or whatever the content might be. Then that there are some emotional cues that are getting missed, right? And again, I want to hear what you feel about this and how that is for you. Yeah. Yeah. and just to clarify, when we say the content, right, that’s kind of the EFT way of saying what happens in the fight, right?

The content would be focusing on, he came home late from work and then this and then, or she does this, this, this, or they do that, that, that, right? And then getting stuck in just talking about the what happens. So when we refer to content, that’s what we’re talking about. It’s just what happens between couples. And that’s usually where people do start. And that’s where we have to start, right? Cause we have to get a picture of what’s going on. But it’s interesting because

Oftentimes couples come in saying, Michael, we don’t know how to communicate anymore, or we’re just bad at communicating, right? Some version of that.

I often think about how that’s so not true. Because when I sit back and I say, you know, what most people are looking for in therapy is, can you help us communicate better? Can you, what are the skills? And they say, that’s the thing that they say, right? They say, what are the tools? We need tools. We need skills. Right. So I often just sit back and I go, actually, I don’t think you need those skills from me.

Michael Preston (04:34.008)

Because what I do think and what I truly believe about all humans is that we have a natural ability to communicate wonderfully because we all have an attachment system. Yes. Right. And the attachment system wants to communicate well. when I’ll ask him and I’ll say, you know, here’s some quick, quick tips, right? Is it a good idea to yell at your partner? And they’ll go, no, no, no, no, we know that. Is it a good idea to call your partner’s names?

And I’ll go, no, no, no. say, you’re right, right. We know those things, right?

And yet knowing those things has no bearing on whether we do those things. Right? You know, is it a good idea, you know, to see your partner doing something kind for you and go over and acknowledge it? Yes, that’s a good idea. No one disagrees about these things, right? All the skills and tools of what makes good communication. go through them with

And they absolutely know that they know them. And they know and agree that what is good and what is bad communication. So they come to me as if I have a secret set of tools. And I really, want everyone to know I don’t have a secret set of tools. I don’t have secret skills. I’m just joking, Michael, because it’s like, you’re right. It’s like, often people think there is some kind of technique that they’re missing.

And I think it’s so important what you’re bringing up here when you’re saying there is no specific tools or skills that will suddenly change because and this brings us into because I had had people saying, hey, what are you going to teach us? Right. they kind of like, yeah, I’m going to coach them. Right. And like you said, the thing is, they already know what probably isn’t the right thing. And it reminds me of when I read, you know, the book a long time ago, Nonviolent Communication. A lot of people know this book. And so I knew what was the right way to communicate.

Michael Preston (06:39.232)

Sure. Every time I was triggered, this was when I was very young, every time I was triggered with my partner, well, I couldn’t do any of that, right? Right. And all goes out the window. Exactly. And that’s the whole point, right? That when we are triggered, when our fear response take over, yes, we might know all these tools logically, but we can no longer access in that moment, right? And that’s when we default to these. And I know for some people, they don’t know what we’re talking about. So maybe we can explain that these default attachment strategies, right?

that then take over and create this, or we refer to as a dance cycle, right? And we can talk a bit about that as well. I don’t know. Yeah. Maybe you can tell them a bit about that, Michael, like what the cycle is, the dance is. So people kind of know what these terms are that we use. Yeah, sure. Sure. No, I appreciate the losing access that you’re naming, right? We know these things are good. We know these things are bad, but we lose access to the part of our brain that gives us choice.

Right. we slip into what, so what people show up with is a, a problem managing the threat of disconnection in their relationship. That’s the basic, like people, we have that communication. What I hear is we don’t know how to navigate the difficult moments where the threat of disconnection comes into our relationship.

Yes. And the strategies that we use to reconnect is actually driving the disconnection on both ends of this deal. Yes. Right. And so you were saying we have, so I’ll weave in a little bit of the cycle or this dance. may hear me call this a negative interaction pattern. I’ll weave some of that in with

the attachment pieces that will be relevant as I go through it. But essentially, we are talking about this cycle where something cues one partner up and it’s something they can see or hear from their partner. Or earlier, like one partner staying at work late. That can be a cue to really start someone down a frustrated

Michael Preston (09:06.616)

path. And what happens really quickly in all of us is we have this emotional response system that kicks on. And so it might be something like sitting in the, you know, sitting in the house and you turn to ask your partner a question and you hear a big sigh. Yes. And then that sigh hits.

emotionally, like it’s painful and it’s angering and it’s like, I’m only trying to ask a question here. Like, why is this such a big deal? Right. But it could be something as simple as a sign. So that cues one partner up to go, right. Start making a meaning out of what’s happening. Right. So this fear hits and the meaning maker says, partner doesn’t want to talk to me. I’ve something wrong again. You know, kind of wrong.

Yeah, right. Or maybe they don’t care. Maybe they don’t care about me. Maybe they don’t really love me anymore. Right. And it gets really scary. Yeah. But on the response side, what we don’t do is say, Whoa, are we okay? Like there’s a lot of fear happening right now. Like maybe you don’t want to talk to me. Yes. Maybe you’re just busy. I don’t know. my fear is going.

What we don’t do is often reach from that more vulnerable place. Yes. Right. What we end up doing is going into what most people come into our office saying is a defensive posture. Right. So we have this way of talking about behavior in a really, kind of that judgmental way you were discussing earlier, Thomas, you know, looking at and going, that’s my partner just gets defensive. Right. And defensive can take a lot of ways, right. But

in a scenario like this, it can show up as someone getting angry. Yeah. Right. And going, Hey, like, where are you? Why are you sighing? Why aren’t you engaging with me? What are you doing? Yes. Right. Yes. And that’s going to be our more anxious attachment style is when that threat of disconnection comes, the anxious person, right, is going to

Michael Preston (11:30.254)

try and reach to their partner, but often not with a clear signal. Yeah. And this is so good what you’re saying, because this is we were talking about the cues, right? Being missed, which is where people get into these sites. And this is such a good example. I want you to continue afterwards because it’s really good. I just wanted to kind of interject because this is where it gets lost, right? Like you’re saying, where the what people would call communication, where the signal somehow is not received. And then they miss because, like you said, there’s this internal and meaning making.

from one person, might hear the sigh, right? And then they make meaning of that. And then if you say an anxious person, they might become critical. They might first default, feel a sense of anger, fear, and then start becoming critical and saying, and you didn’t do the dishes yesterday. Right. Exactly. The other person, of course, doesn’t hear the cue is, I need comfort. I’m not sure you’re here with me. They just hear, I done something wrong again.

And that then sent off their defensive response, which might be to disengage. And now they’re totally missing the cues, right? Totally missing. And even just a little example of this, how it can change around in therapy was a very quite recent example I had where this dynamic had been going on, right? And missing cues. And as they started in therapy, being able to communicate these new cues, like you said, the vulnerable cues that often get missed in fight or flight is online, right?

could communicate then the other person, the more detached one, suddenly when the criticism comments that are going into, I’ve done something wrong or I’m in trouble or I’m not good enough, whatever meaning making they would have, they were able to now see, she’s struggling and she just needs a hug and would just go over and hug her. And they said to me instantly it came down and it deescalated. And they like, said, I can’t believe that it’s that easy. Well, that’s what I love about EFT.

right? Emotionally focused therapy is it’s an incredibly nuanced model. It can be very difficult. we, we discuss and deal with very difficult topics, but in essence, it’s a very simple model, right? Which is going, we, we adamantly believe we adamantly hold that the thing your partner is doing makes sense. Yeah. Because there’s something underneath and if we can help you all get underneath, right? Yes. Then

Michael Preston (13:51.852)

then you’ll find that, connection is possible. I think about…

Michael Preston (14:06.242)

What we were saying earlier, right, about couples that come in and say, we have communication issues. Yes. Right. And what I think about is the way this thing that you’re talking about, right, this defensiveness, the shutting down that’s driving disconnection, that what we have is this block to love and care. Yes. That’s what we have as a block to love and care. Yeah. Right. It’s not a commute, commute the communication, this dance, this style of

interacting with each other. That’s driving a disconnection. And disconnection means I can’t get the good care that I have for my partner to them. And then, and then the only way we know to say, I can’t get my care to my partner and my partner’s care can’t get to me is we must have communication issues. Right? So I know that’s what people are really, really talking about when they come in and say, have communication issues is I can’t feel the love and care.

in moments when I need it. And I can’t seem to get that care I have from my partner in moments that they need it. Yes, that’s a beautiful way of describing it. It’s like, I don’t know how to send my care and I don’t know how to receive it. Right. And that I don’t even know that my partner is trying to tell me they care in these moments. Right. Because it doesn’t look like care. That’s right. Because you’re like the criticism look like, I’m being attacked. Right. And like you said,

It all makes sense when we understand the context of these behaviors is that actually if somebody might show this kind of behavior be very, very critical, it’s actually that they are trying to reach because you are so important. Because if it was some random, you know, they don’t have that response to the therapist because they don’t care that much about us. We’re not that important to them. But they have that response to their partner because getting that response from their partner is so important. Right. So actually, like you said, it’s exactly because that person matters so much to them.

that they have these strong and that they have such a strong fear response, right? When it’s not there, when it’s missing, because that’s saying to the brain, danger, danger, I might be alone now, right? And that’s a threat. And then at that moment, if we hadn’t, you know, had different interactions and models that show how we can, like you said, access vulnerable emotions, communicate them, then of course, we’re going to go into these default defense strategies, right? There’s a reason we call it fight, a flight or collapse or phone, right? There’s not that many options.

Michael Preston (16:29.676)

Right. If we haven’t had a different model. And I think you said something earlier that I want to touch on and also hear what you want to say about is this. When people come in and are very harsh on their own responses, right. And saying, it’s my fault. I don’t know how to do this. Or I am very, you know, whatever they think I’m ruining this because I’m too angry or whatever they might say. Or I’m not really normal. You know, I heard all these kinds of things people say, or I’m really childish where they judge these own behaviors. Right.

when actually they are completely natural behaviors to have developed, right? Because at a very young age, we were so vulnerable and we were fully dependent and our life did actually depend on these caregivers, whether they were to respond or not. Like you do die if your parents just say, see you later. Right. So that the fact that it has such a fearful response at the closest person doesn’t respond does make sense.

And if we didn’t get that, then it totally makes sense. We had to develop different ways of still surviving, whether it was crying, accommodating, whether it was raising our voice, whether it was pulling away because we didn’t trust anybody would be there anyway. So, you know, often we have this, avoidant people can’t be intimate. I think they can. But of course it’s scary for them because if you as a child reach out and there was never any response at some point, you have to say,

I’m only going to depend on myself, right? That’s right. And that does make sense in the context of seeing that, think. But yeah, I just want to hear as well what you think and what you see, because I do see sometimes people are very harsh and very judgmental on these responses they have, which are completely natural. No, you’re absolutely right. They do. It’s a lot. They’re harsh towards their own and they’re harsh towards their partners’ responses. And it’s really when you can…

So we use a phrase, we use a phrase in EFT, at least among like how therapists talk and conceptualize their cases, but we talk about decriminalizing the action tendency, right? And the action tendency is a word that we use to describe the thing that you do in the face of the threat of disconnection, right? So that’s either you’re yelling, shutting down, you get critical, you point out a problem, you use…

Michael Preston (18:48.59)

Some avoid avoidant strategy is to use anger to create distance, right? All of those are action tendencies that we’re dealing with a threat of disconnection and in the face of some kind of. Narrative in our head that says this is not good for us, right? Or this is not good for me. And we want to help people get underneath that so that we can.

decriminalize it to really understand what’s driving it. And this, think, what makes working with an EFT therapist in particular very different, not than every model, but than a lot of models, which is to hold a highly humanistic view that all behavior makes sense if we’re willing to understand it. Yes. Right? Truly willing to understand it. Yeah. So if you’re willing to sit with someone who is yelling and say,

Help me understand and what’s happening to you in these moments when the yelling begins, what’s going on. Oftentimes you will hear a story of someone who will say, it’s like my partner is shutting down and they’re going away and they won’t engage. Yes. And I’m terrified. Yes. I’m so scared that if my partner doesn’t engage, then what is going to be left? Yeah. Right. I’m going to one of these days, they’re going to walk out of the room.

And they’re never going to come back to me. Yes. But they don’t often share that. Yeah. So what they do is instead of sharing that with their partner, they go up and they go, if I make enough stink, I can get my partner to turn around, fight back with me, re-engage with me. And at least this, right? Some connection is better than no connection, right? Some response is better than no response.

So if I can get you to fight with me, that’s better than watching you walk away. Yes. Right. This is just so good what you’re saying. And again, because I can’t use specific examples from therapy, I use some from my own life. know, and I see with my son, you know, he has gone into hospital a lot and there’s been times where his behavior then become quite challenging. And I guess if we only look at the behavior alone without understanding the attachment, a parent might have gotten angry. Right.

Michael Preston (21:12.896)

And because when he came home from hospital, sometimes you might push his sister a bit or something like that. Right. And you can see the frustration because again, he’s been there. We can’t always both be there, both his parents. Right. So he start feeling scared, which makes sense when you’re in hospital waiting surgery, a small child. then instead of getting angry, which I probably would have if I hadn’t understood this framework, I would say that’s bad behavior. That’s not. And don’t do that. I would, of course, stop him pushing her.

And I would sit down and say with him and say, what’s happening right now? Yeah. And I will help him be able to get to a place and saying, okay, you know, when we get to this place that actually he craved connection and he feel quite scared. And then I’ll sit and I’ll be, I’m here with you. I’m here with you and I’m not going to go anywhere. And then his, it’s totally natural that you feel this frustration. It’s really hard what you’ve gone through. And then he’s calms down and guess what? The behavior changes and he doesn’t use his sister anymore. Right.

But it’s just a good example, I think, of how responding to these cues can then calm the nervous system so quickly, right? Because if we miss them, it escalates, right? The normal response would have been, I guess, in a partnership often, then there would be a counterattack or pulling away or shutting down, whatever it be, right? Because we just see the behavior. We are not hearing what’s communicating behind that behavior, right? Like here, my son, like in many couples, saying, I’m in distress. Yeah.

And like you said, which I think is such a good point, any attention is better than none. That’s right. Yeah. And even when we look at kids now, the example I am, a kid will act up if they want your attention, right? Because even getting you to come and shout at them is better than being completely ignored. Yeah. So they will take being the bad child over being the ignored child. Right. So I think that was such a good point that you mentioned. Yeah. But in children, we put a negative

judgmental label on it as well. Right. This is where you hear schools or parents saying, this is attention seeking behavior, right? they’re acting out in class. It’s attention seeking behavior. So that’s bad. Yes. And if you look at it from an attachment perspective, this is bids for connection. Yes. Right. Can, if I, if I can do all the good. Yes. And it goes unnoticed and it seems to have no meaning to you.

Michael Preston (23:37.814)

And you just ignore me. Yes. Well, what if I, what if I do something bad? Yeah. That grabs your attention. Yes. Right. And all like, so for example, even, even spanking, right. Is a form of connection. And if that’s where you’ll step in, the spanking is actually going to

perpetuate the problem because most people started like, it’s a negative consequence, right? That will not connection, right? If that’s what I’m going to, if that’s what I have to do to get connection, then let’s go. doesn’t work, right? What works is will you sit with me? Will you see what’s driving that? And then I can have, so what happens right when kids or adults, right? This never stops. And that’s what I think we all think happens.

is we outgrow our attachment strategies. Like we become adults and we become mature. And it’s like, nope, sorry. We get distressed, we make bad choices. Yes. Because distress in our bodies limits our options. Yeah. Right. We don’t feel so open to options. And so I think about like when a kid throws a tantrum. Okay. I mean, how many adults do we see throw tantrums? Happens all the time.

Right. But kids were like, no, no, no, you can’t do that. That’s a tantrum throwing. Right. Yes. But what’s happening is our bodies are hijacked and our options are few. Yes. And we’re doing something that we honestly believe is going to get us the best opportunity to find connection. Yes. And for the anxious person, what they found oftentimes developed, you develop an anxious attachment when your primary caregiver.

is able to respond sometimes. Yes. But then sometimes not able to respond. Yes. And so you get this like, I don’t know what I got to do to get them to respond to me. So let’s do this, but I don’t ever know if the care and love is coming. Yes. Right. And so this gets really anxious. I don’t know what’s going to happen. Yeah. And then they, they often are the ones that are louder. They have more emotional expression.

Michael Preston (25:58.06)

Yes. And that’s the kind of the whole gamut of emotions, right? Joy, sadness, happy, they kind of let all of it go, but it’s also kind of running a bit wild, right? Their emotions can have them rather than them having their emotions. Yes. And their partner can feel, you know, kind of put off like, whoa, right? Yeah. It’s so overwhelming, right? can be very overwhelming. course. And so when that…

signal comes in, like the overwhelming signal.

The avoidant person goes, nope, not doing this. And they shut off, right? Because oftentimes in the face of emotionally distressing moments in their life, there was only one.

truth, which is my caregiver isn’t coming. Yes. It’s not sometimes that there’s it is when I ask a withdraw. So a withdraw is the word that we use for people with an avoidant because that’s literally what they do is withdraw on the anxious side. We’ll call them a pursuer because normally that’s what they do. They tend to pursue even, and it can get little, but in general, that’s how it works. was going to go into a little bit more of a, a nuanced bit, but I was like, you know what?

Let’s stick to the basics for a moment. I can geek out on this and we can just talk about that for now. But so if you hear me say pursue or know that that’s the anxious, if you hear me say withdraw, that’s the avoidant. And so what they’ll do is they learn very young that help is not on the way. And when I ask a withdraw, like, you know, hey, when, when, when you were young, who did you turn to? Like, how did you manage distress? What did a bad day look like for you? Who did you talk to about bad days?

Michael Preston (27:44.642)

And then look at me like I’m from an alien planet sometimes. Yes. Like, what do you mean talk to someone? We didn’t do that. Yeah. I didn’t have anybody to tell I had a bad day. Yes. Right. And like, anytime I hear that, my heart breaks, right? As it would. And so what they’ve learned is that their emotions are going to be overwhelming and unwelcome. Yes. Right. And what I’ve really, so what they’ll do is they’ll start to withdraw.

Right. And they’ll shut down. Some leave the room, some pick up, pick up their phone and look at it. Right. And if they get up and walk away or they sigh or they roll their eyes, all of these are little cues. That’s their action tendency that we were talking about. Yeah. And then they also, yeah. And also Michael, right. I don’t know if you have this, but of course I think a lot of people with the more avoidant strategy.

They also tend to been criticized quite a lot, meaning they very quickly go into feeling that, I done something wrong or I’m not good enough or that’s a very common narrative, right? Because they tend to have grown up with quite critical caregivers, right? Where they received a lot of criticism and then they very quickly go there, right? Even with small cues that maybe you and me would say, that’s okay. Maybe I’ve done that. But for them very quickly, is there something wrong with me or I can’t get this right anyway. So why try? I think the perfect

example to kind of help conceptualize this avoidance strategy was when, I can’t remember who told me, or whether some of the literature, but this example of, remember when they used to say, just let the babies cry out. That old thing, you should just leave. That’s a perfect example of how to create avoidant attachment, like literally, because what happens is the baby get more more distressed until the nervous system can handle it. And actually it can even become threatening, right? Because blood pressure can get too high.

So the only option the organism have when it’s realized nobody’s coming to my call of distress is it has to shut it down, literally to survive. has to shut down. So it numbs out. Right. And I think that for me somehow really hit home this idea of the experience of their void. And that is not that they don’t care. It’s not that they don’t want connection, but it’s that if it becomes so and people often say, you know,

Michael Preston (30:02.028)

I heard anxious partners say, he doesn’t have any emotions. He doesn’t feel anything. And it’s not true that avoiding people don’t know. Not at all. True. Right. They can feel high levels of stress. It’s just the way they learn to deal with that stress was I now need to push it down and suppress it. Otherwise it will overwhelm. And when you look at, when we look at them side by side, an anxious person and an avoidant person, right.

And you measure like that. They’ve done a lot of brain studies and observe the brain during emotional, dysregulation and often, and more often than not, the avoidant partner is more distressed than the anxious partner. Yes. But it’s like this, like, pressure cooker for them. Yes. Right. With no release valve. Yes. Right. And so they’re just constantly.

building this, like I think of like an air compressor. Yes. Right. And it’s just building. And for the anxious partner, they have a way to pull on that, right. Which is to get upset, right. Get do something, pursue their partner, right. Move that emotion somewhere. But the avoidant has what we call disowned those parts of them. Right. Which is to just cut them off and say it’s not OK to keep feeling this way.

Right. So I’ve got to cut them off eventually. Right. Like all pressure cookers, if you don’t relieve it, it’s going to pop. Right. And so you’ll have more often than not. Again, this is more numbers than it is. Like it has to always be this way. But the numbers show withdrawing partners are the one that tend to have affairs. Right. They tend to be the one that go outside the relationship because of so much distress and they find a way to relieve it.

They can also pop off in anger suddenly. Right. And get the big bursts of anger and then right back in. Yes. And then like, no, it’s just, you know, it’s just, it’s fine. And then, you know, back to their neatly regular scheduled progress. Right. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. The thing that I, that is so important to begin to decriminalize their action tendency, right. Which is what we’ve been talking about is how do we, how do we approach

Michael Preston (32:25.718)

These moments where they are causing incredible distress for one another. And how do you, as a couple’s therapist, or I as a couple’s therapist, begin to see their behavior as a strategy to manage the disconnection and create hope for reconnection, which is kind of odd because you think, okay, I can get out of the pursuer, right? The pursuer is kind of like, come on, I’m going to follow you. And clearly they want reconnection, but how is it that the withdraw, how is the voidant?

Who is avoiding, right? How are they doing something positive for the connection and how are they hoping for reconnection? Yes. Well, I really appreciate the way one, one, which are said to me when I was exploring that he said, you know, I go away because at some point we’re going to say something we can’t take back. Yeah. At some point we’re going to do too much damage. Yes. And we won’t be able to recover.

So I go away so we can live to fight another day.

Like that’s pretty powerful. Yes. Like if we keep doing this, if we keep harming each other with these big arguments, yes, we’re really going to hurt each other. Yes. And the only way I see out of it is to literally just go. Yes. Right. So that, so that things can calm down so that we can maybe find a way. Right. Yes. And that’s, goes, it makes so much sense.

Right? Because you care, you wouldn’t want to throw something at this partner. Yes. Because you care about them, because you love them and you want to make sure you preserve what feels like in these moments, what little thread of connection you might have left with them. Yes. Right? Feels like it’s about to break and you go before it snaps. Yeah. And you know, I think this frame you’re bringing up here is so helpful. Cause again, the lens we see the world through obviously change how we react to the world around us. Right? And this is such a powerful lens because

Michael Preston (34:28.064)

It’s a perfect example, know, somebody who come in and you have this escalation, maybe he gets criticized, suddenly the white drawer avoidant, whatever term we use, will withdraw, he will go out for a walk, right? And for her, the more anxious, she feel now more rejected because she’s like, I’m in distress, he leave. And so again, the cycle keeps spinning out of control, but suddenly seeing through this different lens, like you said, and this was spot on, right? And something similar came up with this that actually, hey,

In these moments, it’s actually done to try and protect relationships. The feeling overwhelmed and can’t contain it. So I remove myself so can calm myself down first. Right. And that’s a very different lens, right, than the lens and meaning making, as we call it, of he doesn’t care about me or I’m not important. Suddenly, it’s a totally different lens that actually he cares so much that he remove himself because he doesn’t want to cause harm.

So he now goes away and probably he could need some soothing, but he goes away and deal with it himself because that’s how he learned best to be able to regulate. Right. That was the strategy. I shouldn’t say he because it can also be any gender, but it’s just to kind of say that there is this place where often these are mechanisms just to protect. Right. And I feel often us as therapists, when we study, we learn all these different tools, validation, that we learn.

However, to boil it down, at least for me, maybe this is oversimplification. But for me, in the beginning, it’s almost like the EFT therapist models secure attachment. All these strategies are literally just what would naturally happen in a securely attached dynamic. In a securely attached dynamic, we’re not trying to be right. I’m just hearing, okay, this is your experience and it’s okay that it might be totally different than mine.

I don’t agree with my kids all the time, but I can still validate how they feel about the things, right? And same with my partner. And that really soothes the nervous system, right? And it’s incredible how soothing it can be. Like even for me, just two days ago, randomly, some bailiff showed up for somebody who lived here before, not for me, don’t worry, for somebody who lives here. I was like, no, no, no, not for me. Are you going away from me?

Michael Preston (36:45.902)

I’m gonna chase you down, Thomas. He’s gonna be alone in the podcast. No, not for me. They shoot up because some guy who lived there like a year and a half ago owed some debt, right? But I didn’t know who they were. They didn’t identify themselves and they just push into the house. And when I asked him to identify, he said, I don’t have to do the big guys with tattoos, right? And I felt that adrenaline just shoot up, right? And I obviously had to calm myself down because I didn’t want to escalate into violence, but I didn’t know who this guy was.

yeah. That response is natural, right? That’s a child, exactly. And there’s my partner, they’re etc. So adrenaline is flowing and I’m trying to contain it. And what I noticed was that afterwards, it was really hard for me for the whole day, I was stopping this loop where I couldn’t focus, right? Because adrenaline has hijacked me. And then I called up my friend who’s a psychologist and I told him that and I said, and I’m getting this fantasy that I want to hit these people, da da da. And he all he said,

Thomas, that’s so normal. Because in that moment, you wanted to defend your family, but you had to suppress that impulse. So it’s normal that we then start fantasizing. Then we need to fantasize about what we wanted to do. So he said it’s totally… And even though I knew it, just hearing it from him, a very close friend of 25 years, instantly calmed my nervous system and it really helps me snap out of it, right? Well, that’s a simple normalizing validation.

Exactly. It is okay. You aren’t crazy. Yes. And you aren’t bad for having that thought. Yes. And it’s incredible, right? It’s incredible the power of that, right? And we obviously know that, but it’s rare that I, because it’s not very often I get very stressed, right? But this was very stressful. So suddenly it was quite a good reminder of the impact of what we do might have to the people that we are working with, right? To suddenly have that. Cause afterwards I’m like, that really calmed me down.

Just him saying that it’s okay. It’s not that I’m a horrible person because I thought about punching this guy who stepped into my house. was just, you know, it’s a natural response to try and cope with all that adrenaline. our brains are wired for…

Michael Preston (38:56.332)

Detecting threats. Yes, but that’s that’s where it’s always is detecting threats. Yes And so of course it’s going to react right? Yes, and of course it’s going to react in a way that says what do need to do to protect myself? Yes, right and that’s what That’s no different than what the couples that come to our office are telling us. That’s right is I’m scanning my environment That’s right, and I’m looking for these threats to our disconnection. Is it coming? Is it coming?

because the cycle that we’ve been in for so long tells me it’s coming. That’s right. And what our brains are incredible, right? There are these incredible detection systems. And when you’ve done something for a long time, so oftentimes, you know, couples don’t come into therapy until six years, seven years into distress. Yes. And then they want to know how long it’s going to take to get them out of it. Well, we’ve been doing this for a while, right? Yes. But what happens when you do something for so long, like anything,

Right. The more you do it, the better and faster you can get to it. Right. That’s right. And so we start looking for those signals. Our brains start scanning our partner for early detection, s- signals. Right. So it’s not that I’ve done anything wrong when I walk into the room, but maybe I’m walking quickly through the room and my partner’s brain says,

no, my partner is walking quickly. Usually the, it goes into a certain category, right? When they walk quickly, 7.5 times out of 10, they end up yelling at me. Yes. Suddenly without any, like we’re talking milliseconds, their partner shuts down, pulls away. And the other partner who doesn’t have a clue. Yes. Hey, like what’s, what’s wrong?

Yes. Nothing. Nothing. I’m good. I’m okay. Yeah. But their early detection system has already gone off. Yes. And they’re really even unaware. Yes. Because their, their brain, our brains are so pattern driven that it starts looking for signals, right? All the time. And then it starts responding immediately without often even our knowledge. Yes. Absolutely. When I’m doing this with couples, one of the things that I’ll say often, I’ll say a few things often. One I’ll say,

Michael Preston (41:20.77)

Because the cycle is always the enemy, right? The thing that happens to both of us and takes over our relationship becomes the enemy. That’s the thing we are at war against. Yes. But we’re doing that together. What I’ll say is we can go fast or we can go far. Yes. But we can’t do both. Yes. Right? Because the faster you go, the more likely you are to crash. Yep. Right? Because that’s what happens in your relationship. Things move to…

And we lose flexibility when we go fast. use the example of a fast car. you’re driving 130 miles an hour, you can’t turn a sharp corner. You cannot keep going straight, right? Otherwise you crash. But if we drive 20 miles an hour, well, then we have quite a lot of flexibility. absolutely. And I think what you’re saying about how the brain works is actually a really important thing to understand. And it was very helpful for me to start understanding how the brain process information, right? Because

You know, this is why when we talked earlier about just giving people skills and telling them what to do doesn’t work because that’s engaging the logic. But actually, when we process the world, logic is the last system to come online. know, it’s also engaging them in logic. When they’re not distressed, like they’re in our office, often they don’t say they’re not. It’s not the same thing. Exactly. You’re speaking to a part of the brain that isn’t going to be.

available to them when this thing kicks off. exactly. And this is why it’s so helpful to understand how we process. At first, it’s bodily, right? Then it’s the emotional memories, and then it comes to logic, right? And what really helped me was understanding that when we get a cue from the outside world, there are so many parts missing. And what the brain has to do to make sense of it,

It fills out all the missing parts, right? To create a coherent story we can then respond to. And those missing parts can only be filled out by past memories, right? That’s right. So that means that the more confusing the queue is that’s being sent, the more likely it will be misunderstood, right? And this is why, again, I know we’re not meant to give advice as therapists, but I always say to people, when you’re in distress, do not start texting your partner. when you text… Don’t do it.

Michael Preston (43:36.782)

Don’t do it. Because when you text, there so many cues missing that the risk of them having to fill all that out is so much higher, right? And the chances of misinterpretation and escalation is so much higher. When we are missing, we can’t see the tonality, we can’t ask a direct question to quickly get feedback, we can’t see eye contact. So it’s like the chance of escalation is so much higher.

So the only advice I ever give is when you’re distress, do not text each other. That’s right. Yeah. It’s a terrible idea. Yeah. I often mention texting to couples and just because 7 % of our communication are in the actual words we’re using. 7%. Yes. Think about that. Like I’m giving 93 % of my meaning

behind my words to my partner and whatever state they are in. Yes. Right. So that is, it’s fraught for disaster, right? It’s just, it’s constant disaster when we use texting to try to, to try to communicate hard things. Right. So I took you all the time. Schedule on text. That’s fine. Text the schedule. Yes. And send affirmations. Yes. Right. Send a text that says,

I love you. Yes, I really appreciate you. Yes, really grateful for our relationship. Those are harder to misunderstand. Absolutely. And then, you you say something really important again, Michael, really good point is also through text is not only our interpretation, but we also can’t read where the other person is right by which you’ve been person you can see, okay, this person is in a lot of stress. They had a bad day. They probably can’t receive.

But again, on text, you go, right. have no idea. Whatever, well, however you want to hear this, I’m letting you decide. Yes. It’s like, woo, that is, that is a whole lot of what could be within my realm of control that I am giving up to another. Yes. Right. Because if I, you know, just thinking about like how body language works, right.

Michael Preston (45:48.982)

If I use the phrase, right, if you think about a, like a kid coming home and he’s late for curfew kind of thing. Yes. Right? And walks in the door.

Dad’s on his feet, walks over to the kid and says, where have you been? Right? man, we’re in trouble, right? It’s clear. The message is clear. We’re in trouble, right? But if you took the same words and the same scenario, the kid walks in the house and the dad gets to his feet and he walks over to his child and he says,

Michael Preston (46:35.106)

Where have you been? Yeah. Right. It’s not so threatening anymore. Yes. Right. What’s being communicated isn’t I’m in trouble. What’s being communicated is my dad was scared. Yeah. He was concerned. Yes. Right. Yeah. That’s what gets communicated. Yeah. It’s the same words. Yes. Right. But it’s what part of my connected to him when I deliver those words. Yes. When I send that text, where have you been? Yes.

it’s going to get interpreted however they imagine I’m bringing that to them. Exactly. Right. And what I want is to set this up for success. And so I want to make sure that I have as much of that ability to communicate my care and love in my court. Yes. Which I don’t do when I text. Right. So that’s a little tangent on. it was an amazing example because I could feel it.

even in your tonality, right? So this is why it’s great actually to give this. I felt the harshness, right? And then I felt the calmness and I felt the difference and I’m not even your child. But our brain registers threats and our brain registers safety. And that’s what’s going on. people sometimes, this might be a good thing to bring up because people will often say, and often sometimes avoiding partners will say, why do I have to do this vulnerability thing, right? I don’t really like it. It’s uncomfortable.

Yeah. Why do I? I think, again, now we’re talking a bit about the understanding and the brain science of why is the fact that when we come with a more hostile response, whether it’s tonality, the words, body language, right, then we are going to elicit the fear response in the other person. And now they’re driving at 130 miles an hour. That means they don’t have flexibility. They can only go to their default. But what happens in the vulnerability is it actually instead

elicit a response in the empathetic part of the brain. Meaning, suddenly we don’t have the fear response and that means those default behaviors don’t have to come online. And they can then react in a very different way. It’s a much lower tempo and we can now navigate. I need to turn right, I can, but if I need to turn left, I can do that too. Yes. And this is the why behind we are trying to get to the more vulnerable emotions, right? Instead of staying at the more surface escalatory emotions. It’s exactly that. I think

Michael Preston (48:58.722)

You gave such a, yeah. was just to add to what you’re saying, right? Because it gets into the dance and what makes like, why, if you’re going and seeing a good counselor, they’re going to track that dance with you, right? They’re going to follow it because what they want each people to see each person to see is the more you move towards protection, right? Whether your protection is to withdraw or to pursue. Yes. When you move to protection.

Your partner almost has no choice, but to move to their own protection. Yes. But when your partner moves to their own protection, it also sets you to continue in your protection. As we drive faster and faster. That’s right. And so you drive faster. So they drive faster and then you drive faster. So they drive faster and it just, we feed each other. Right. This is a massive difference. I think when I began as a therapist and so much was it about

You know, did you keep your side of the street clean? Right. Did you, and if your partner didn’t, then that’s fine, but just keep your set. And then I realized I don’t want to walk on a different side of the street than my partner. Yes. Right. I want to walk in the street hand in hand down the middle, but in order to do that, I have to be willing to say, I can see my move. I can name my protection. Yes. And I can.

understand that it has an impact on my partner. Yes. And when my partner does their protective move, yes, I have a part in that. Yes. As someone that helped to set that up. Yes. And they have a part in my protection because of their move. And so suddenly it’s, it’s either we have unclean streets or we have a clean street, but it’s not my side and your side clean, not clean.

It is we hold this, we hold responsibility for our relationship together, both people have to see their move. Both people have to compassionately hold their own move. Yes. And they also have to see the impact their move has as it sets their partner up for the move that we’re trying to get rid of. Right. The pursuer is trying to keep the partner from going away.

Michael Preston (51:21.314)

But their thing that they’re doing is causing their partner to go away. Yes. And then the thing that the withdraw is trying to do is to get their partner often to calm down. So they leave and when they leave, they don’t realize that they are actively participating in what causes their partner to not calm down. And we feed each other, right? Couples that really get that. And then couples that get the thing that drives them.

And they gain access to the more vulnerable place. Yes. And oftentimes they’ll say, I had no idea they were in so much distress. I just thought they were mad at me. Yeah. Right. When they begin to gain access to that. Yes. Then they begin to go, I can shift. I can see it. And so they got to be able to catch it, right? They got to be able to catch it. Not just in our office. You were saying earlier, we kind of are that secure attachment. We are.

At the beginning of therapy, we are a, we call like a surrogate attachment figure in their relationship. And they need that. They’ve got to run these things through us at the beginning. But the EFT therapist from day one knows where the secure surrogate attachment figure and is actively working to hand that attachment over to the couple. So they become their own attachment figures in their life so that they can do what they’re doing in our office outside of our office.

And they can come in and say, Michael or Thomas, we got into it and we stopped it. Yeah, which is so magical, I love that. And that people are able to do it. Yeah, it’s a beautiful process to see, right? And I we use all these funny analogies last time that we emotional DJs and jungle guide. And I say, I’ll add another one because I also think we’re driving instructors because when we use this, you when you push the pedal and I’ll push, right.

that we are kind of sitting there as a driving instructor with a brake and we even use the term, right? Let’s slow this down. It’s quite a common thing you will hear because we can see when suddenly the processing is happening so fast, right? Then we kind of slow it’s us sitting there as a driving instructor, pushing the brake a little bit so we don’t go over 90, you know, because we know that’s going to crash. And then, as you say, we help them see how the impact of how they

Michael Preston (53:42.432)

interpret the world, the meaning making, right? Then make them have a reactive reaction and how that then calls a reaction in the other person and their meaning making. And so they can start seeing this cycle that they are co-creating, right? Instead of just seeing the other person as the bad guy or the bad woman, right? Which tend to sometimes happen when they first come in, they see, this person is doing this because I’m so important to them.

Because they care so much and they’re trying to protect themselves from being hurt, right? Being harmed or feeling that they’re not worth it. Whatever it is that they’re protecting against. Right. Right. And, then they can see the impact they’re having, right? In a very different lens, a compassionate lens and where they see how the enemy is actually this, it’s this dynamic we get into as a defensive responses. That’s enemy is not my partner. And, and, and that’s where we then slowly get to that place where you say, where they’re able to then.

Interrupt the cycle and we can help them construct a different way of engaging these more Communicating these more vulnerable emotions, right that probably might not have happened outside because they were driving so fast. That’s right Yeah, so so even when they show up blaming right because they often like you’re saying finding the bad guy Yeah, even blaming right is an understandable thing and and it’s all about connection right because it does two things one

It can help deflect from the terrible feeling that I have. Yes. Right. I don’t have to feel that if I can just blame. That’s right. Blaming is also the attempt to find the root of the problem. Because if we could change it, things could be better. Like even in blaming the hope behind blaming is if that changed, we would be better. And both parties really deeply believe that they really believe that my partner would just be different than we could be happy. But it’s really, we have to change.

But even in the blame, that’s their hope, right? This is my hope that if my partner could do something different here, we could be better because my hope is that we can get better. Even that is hopeful if we can sit with that hopefulness up. Yeah. So I have one, one question just to before we wrap up here. Yes, absolutely. And it’s this, just so, it’s just so everyone kind of get to know us a little bit. Left to your own devices. Like let’s, where would you put yourself, secure?

Michael Preston (56:05.568)

avoidant or anxious, more pursuory, more withdrawry? Or did you get to, or did you have the benefit of a secure attachment system? That’s so for me personally, yeah, think that’s a really good question. And I think this, so the answer will be slightly more complex because it also shows that attachment style can actually move, right? They’re not like this fixed things we get and they’re always the same. It depends on the dynamic we’re in, right? So

so can certainly shift us in different directions. So I think I was quite lucky in the way I grew up with two really loving parents that are still together that could resolve conflict really well, that validated me, et that supported me in challenges if I was overwhelmed. So I think, you know, I had a really, I have a default secure attachment style. I love that. And then I think there was a point in my life where I had a very, when I was younger, a very unpleasant experience.

because I did have a relationship with somebody with a very severe personality disorder. And that caused me to start develop, you know, a sense of anxiety inside where suddenly it didn’t feel safe and I didn’t fully trust my own judgment, right? Which is quite normal when we feel then more anxious. But I felt again that it took a while, like I went myself to some therapy for a while. And that was really, really helpful. And then I feel like came back again.

It was almost like, I got back to that memory that actually the world is safe. And when people say, you know, how do you know where your attachment style is? Well, I look at how I tend not just about how my caregivers was, but also how do I tend to respond to the world? And I tend to anticipate that most people will have a kind response towards me. Right. And that obviously says something about the model I had. Right. I anticipate that most people will respect my boundaries. Of course, not everybody does. But my anticipation is that

So I tend to anticipate that the world is not a hostile place. It’s a kind place. And of course, there’s exceptions where I’m proven wrong. But I feel just having that anticipation in itself makes life better, right? Yeah, absolutely. Because I have a lower threat. But like I said, I had had a period in time and I found this very helpful, even though it was very uncomfortable, because it took a couple of years to fully come back and stabilize, right? Because it was very disturbing the way this person acted.

Michael Preston (58:26.446)

So, but I think it helps me a little bit in a therapeutic sense because I have a more felt sensation of how it actually is to have that level of distress and to not really feel that the world is fully safe. So in that way, even though it was certainly not pleasant, I think it has helped me a little bit having a better understanding and empathy for the distress that people might experience, No, I you that. Your turn, Michael.

Well, first all, just appreciate you sharing that. And I love hearing about your parents and the secure place they gave you. And I say that because mostly our job is not in the realm of securely attached to people. And that’s just the way they’re out there having nice relationships, not coming to therapy because they expect good for their partner. They expect good from their partner. Right. And what often

walks into our office is in securely attached individuals. And sometimes it’s more, maybe someone had a secure attachment and it shifted in light of this relationship to a different strategy. And no, guess for me, a lot of times I think like securely attached to people are like these things of folklore, like they don’t actually exist because I don’t spend a lot of time with them because they’re not in my office. Right. So I’m like,

There’s one of those unicorns. So I appreciate hearing about it. But I didn’t have such a stable world as that. you know, I grew up in a, my parents got divorced when I was really young. And my mom remarried.

My stepdad had four kids, my mom had four kids. We all lived together and it was a lot of noise. It was a lot of fun. There’s a lot of things that I cherish about my childhood. But that also comes with difficulties, like inherent difficulties, right? Even in the…

Michael Preston (01:00:37.858)

best like possible scenario of those things, right? Even if all like good things were like, there’s still going to be challenges for kids to really develop a secure attachment in that system regardless. And I developed a more anxious attachment. I am definitely a pursuer. There is no question about it. I’m a hundred percent extroverted on

on every scale, every test that I’ve taken. As I get older, that’s kind of changing a little bit. But also as my job is to spend time with people all day trudging, right? But I’ve always been a pursuing type. I found that funny was a great way to make friends and I could be funny, you know? I could be funny and I would kind of be like just a giant joke walking around.

which as I talked about in our last episode, if you really want to know my deeper self, you’ve got to come through the laughing gate. cause laughter means so much to me, but it also helps regulate my nervous system. which is good at times. And, and then, you know, we develop strategies as anxious people, anxious with people with an anxious attachment, not anxious people. cause my anxiousness doesn’t define me at all, but

we develop strategies. And one of the things that I would do was I found myself being skilled at a lot of things and I would be needed, right? Because my style said I wasn’t wanted. But if I could be needed, right? If I could show up for you, if I could fix your car, if I could, had a friend call me about an electrical problem one time and I was like, yeah, I’ll be right over. I had no idea how to fix electrical at the time. nope.

I had no bit like I could have burned this dude’s house down. But my system said if I don’t answer that call, he’ll find someone else to answer that call. And then he won’t need me anymore. And if he stops needing me, he won’t want, and if he stops needing me and I don’t believe anybody wants me, then I’ll have no one. So drop whatever I’m doing, answer the call because that’s the only way to maintain connections.

Michael Preston (01:03:02.412)

Constantly, that’s the anxiousness. The constant fear is people are going to drop the connection. Like I’m a hair breath away from it. Now, thankfully, as you were naming these things can change. Right. And

Michael Preston (01:03:20.044)

I will get emotional here.

Michael Preston (01:03:24.512)

I have this really incredible, incredible spouse. When I was 15 years old, I told my mom I was going to marry my wife, and I did at 20. We had some rocky years before we went to counseling ourselves.

What I noticed in her was an ability to respond to me in my most distressed moments that really rocked me. And there was a particular moment where I was naming some really painful things in my world and I could see her tear in her eye.

know, everything in my alarm system went off like I’m hurting her, right? I my wife again or whatever it is, right? And when she looked up at me and she said, my heart breaks for you, right? And I realized her tears weren’t because of me, but they were for me.

And like everything in me just kind of broke, right? And to know that that was the love and care that was coming for me and it wasn’t going anywhere. And we’ll celebrate our 17th anniversary this year.

But with my wife, have no need for my anxious attachment, right? Her constant love and care and our work, and I had to access those parts of me and I had to name those things and I had to take the risk of sharing and I had to take the risk of her rejecting that. Because in the face of that, like, here’s this really ugly part of me. Here’s these things that I don’t believe anybody really wants to be a part of.

Michael Preston (01:05:05.932)

And she says, I want all of it. You know, and it changes you because that’s not the message you are expecting. And when it does it like eradicates, at least in our relationship. Right. It eradicates the need for my anxious, you know, one, one choice mind, right? With her, I have infinite choices. With her, have infinite openness.

And so with my wife, I have a very secure attachment. I know that love is coming and I know how to receive and I know how to give love there. but yeah, that’s kind of my, my journey as a pursuer. That’s beautiful, Michael. Really, really beautiful. And it just speaks to the power of what we really need is human empathy, right? Yeah, absolutely. That’s so beautiful. What you say here is just, gave you this beautiful empathetic response.

and saying, hey, I see you, you’re a beautiful human being. You don’t have to be perfect. And as you said, it doesn’t define who we are. I think that was such a powerful statement. Because often when we use these terms, which is why I use them a bit less now than I used to. I think when I first learned, I was very rigid and I would write down in my notepad, she’s anxious. Generalize anxiety disorder. And I don’t do that so much anymore. Because that’s all a strategy. Yeah.

That exactly. Now I just see it as a strategy to create safety. That’s all I see. Just like you said, it’s not who they are. It doesn’t encompass them and they come in so many varieties and other different traits. again, even as you say beautifully, in a safe dynamic, that changes. that’s what I think is exactly. And that’s what I think is so magic.

I seen in my own relationship with a partner who also identified more with the same attachment by you say, right. And I said to her recently, I don’t see any of these behaviors in you and never have. And she said, that’s because with you, I feel safe. don’t need them. So exactly. So I don’t need, she knows it’s okay. If she says to me, actually, I just need this evening and I just want to do my own thing, painting, whatever. I don’t want to spend time. She knows there’s no adverse response, no punishment.

Michael Preston (01:07:26.574)

I can ask for what I need and I’m confident you will respond to her. Receive it, yes, exactly. And she knows there’s no punishment afterwards, right? So it feels safe. you know, the practice of stopping and checking in. And I find this can be very helpful if somebody have a partner who have more, I just call them anxious action tendencies, because like you said, it’s not who we are. So I don’t use as much saying this is an anxious, but these tendencies is also just to help them.

check in. So if they do something, it can be really helpful to ask, is this actually something you want to do? Let’s just slow this down. Because just like you described, very often it’s primed in the nervous system to have to be needed to step in, right? That’s a term. I don’t like this term so much, but the people pleasing term, right? Of having to there be of that value or pleased to be able to have a value in being self. And it can be really helpful to just say, are you sure you actually want this? Let’s just check in.

How does this feel in your body? Is it stressful? said, yeah, this feels good. And then, you know, they can help to learn to say, actually, this is a bit stressful. I’m not sure I really wanted this. And then just help them say, then let’s not do that. Right. Right. And I found that could be really helpful. I’m talking about my own dynamic now that that could be really helpful at at stopping these. Because again, it’s what you’re saying about slowing down. Right. The auto response is always fast. And just saying, let’s slow down. hear that you said

You know, you want to give me a massage, but do you actually want to massage me because you look quite tired or do you actually just need and then they can just check in and they learn because often an anxious person haven’t learned to check in. No, because nobody checked in with them. Nobody showed that care to say, do you actually want to do this? And it’s OK if you don’t. Yeah, I think that’s that’s that’s spot on. Right. And it doesn’t matter whether I want to do the thing or not do the thing. Right.

It is, have to do the thing or I’m going to lose you. there’s not like a, even so oftentimes they want to say, of course I want to do it. Right. But it’s not that I want to do it. It’s of course I want to do the thing that makes sure that we stay connected because if I stopped doing this, right, connection will be taken away. even if you said, do you want to, they’re going to check like until they really learned to sit slowly and trust that they’re still going to say, of course I want to. Right. I always want to, I always want to.

Michael Preston (01:09:51.234)

Yes. But what’s driving it, right? When it’s always yes. Yes. Isn’t a sense of safety and security. It’s that sense of, if I say no, I will lose you. But oftentimes we aren’t still long enough to sit with the disquiet of that fear to really begin to name it and bring it forward. often, I mean, oftentimes they’ll say, I just love serving people. I just love helping people. And they do. I do. I love it.

Yes. And if I sit long enough, there’s, there’s a place where the people that I feel safe with, have the option of no, where I don’t always have that in other places and don’t even realize it. But I definitely know that there are some people I can say no with. it feels so good. Of course it does because that’s where authentic connection actually happens. Right. It’s the only place it can happen. And this is why I’ve found it very useful to

to even encourage a no by when I got a no, maybe I wanted to spend time together and my partner said, don’t really tonight, I just want to whatever. And I would just say to them, thank you for saying no and thank you for telling me it’s not what you want. And in the beginning, that would be a bit confusing to receive. What do you mean? I said, because there’s no connection happening anyway, if you’re here when you’d rather be somewhere else. So I much rather you just say no, not tonight. And then when you do say yes,

I can trust that it’s a yes and I know we’re both fully there. That feels much better to me. So what I said, you know, was that actually it built trust and safety for me too. When I know you can say no, because that way I also know your yes is fully right. Yeah. And that makes it easier for me to relax because again, if I can’t trust your yes and no, then I have to start care taking you a bit more to make sure you don’t violate. I can’t actually trust you. Yes. Right.

That’s right. And that takes energy for me to now have to start monitoring whether you’re looking out for yourself or not. So actually, it’s helping me when you’re looking out for yourself and saying yes or no. It’s really helpful because then I can just chill and know, okay, if you don’t want this, you’re just going to say no. So I think it’s an act of service to the relationship to learn to say no. I think it’s an act of service, which is beautiful.

Michael Preston (01:12:16.716)

We can go on and on, Michael. I know people need to go to work or wherever they’re traveling. So we will continue next week. And as always, it’s awesome to have these discussions. And I really liked your last question because as you said, it took us out of our expert mind and brought us back to just being human beings, right? Which we are. are human beings. beautiful. Thomas. I look forward to chatting again soon. See you next week, my man. All right. Bye.