Understanding Relationship Compatibility

It’s great to see you again, Michael. And it was fun to do last week’s episode. And I’m actually excited this week of maybe diving a bit deeper because we covered a lot of topics last time, right? To give a bit of an overview. And it’ll be lovely, I think, this week to just talk a bit more about

Michael Preston (00:09.355)
Sounds good.

Michael Preston (00:13.675)
Yeah, I

Thomas Westenholz (00:28.642)
This dynamic, think we touched on it a little bit about the anxious pursuer and the white draw, but it’s very often other people coming into couples therapy because they get into distress. It’s a very common dynamic that will get into distress at some point. It could be fun maybe just to throw it out there and we start having a little chat about that and how that looks like and the experience of the different partners and how they end up getting to that place.

Michael Preston (00:55.253)
Let’s do it. Let’s jump in. I think it’s great.

Thomas Westenholz (00:58.155)
Amazing. So maybe we could start, I don’t know where we’re going to start. Maybe we could help people get a bit of an understanding of the experience that each partner is having, right? Because there’s often on one side is anxious pursuer and the other person the more while draws. So I don’t know, would you be able to maybe help people understand a bit more the experience of the anxious pursuer and how this looks like from their perspective?

Michael Preston (01:07.567)
Thank

Michael Preston (01:20.327)
Absolutely. Yeah. you know, as I mentioned in the last episode, like that was anxious pursuers, kind of how my world was organized for such a long time, even relationally. it’s, you know, walking around as an anxious pursuer is you’re, you’re constantly aware that disconnection is just around the corner, right? It’s like the boogeyman that’s just right there. And you

You just don’t know when the boogeyman is going to jump out, but you’re just constantly sure that it’s going to. And so you are reaching for your partner and hold my hand. let’s sit next to each other on the couch and watch a show. Let’s, know, let’s go, let’s go shopping together. Right. Come, come with me while I go pick out clothing. Come with me, come, come into the kitchen with me when I’m cooking, right? All these.

bids for connection to keep that connection constantly up and running.

Because as long as the connection is up and running, then we feel more settled on the inside. If I just hold on, you can’t go anywhere. Right. And that’s what’s so terrifying is that if I let go at all, you might go somewhere. You doesn’t mean you’ve shown me that you will. Maybe, the partner’s like, but I’m home.

Thomas Westenholz (02:53.985)
Yes.

Michael Preston (02:59.859)
I’m home every night. I come home right after work. I don’t even go to the pub with the lads. I come straight home. Right. And so, so how often are counterparts, the, the more avoidant partner doesn’t really understand how their partner could feel like their relationship is in jeopardy all the time. But it’s, it’s kind of just a

revolving alarm bell that just kind of runs in the back of our brain all the time. And then something happens in the alarm bell gets louder and moves forward to the front of our brain. Right. So it’s not whether or not we’re worried about connection or not. It’s how loudly is the alarm bell going off that says disconnection is coming and I’m going to lose my part.

Does that make sense?

Thomas Westenholz (03:58.818)
absolutely. It’s like, can I fully trust this connection? Is it going to be there? Is it going to stick? It’s like, and that, you know, I guess that’s also why, you know, people with this anxious pursuer tend to ruminate more, right? It’s quite common and they will think more about things and they’re more likely to start blaming themselves, right? If something has happened and thinking, maybe I missed something up, right? While avoidant would tend to have quite different strategies. They don’t necessarily spend that much time in that place, right?

Michael Preston (04:04.895)
Yeah.

Thomas Westenholz (04:28.202)
ruminating as much as maybe the more anxious pursuer would, right? But it’s also fascinating as you’re describing this, and I’m even feeling it, that it’s just a fundamental different way, two different ways of regulating the nervous system, depending on these experiences that they had, right? Because the more anxious pursuer regulates what we call co-regulation, basically through other people, right? So often they feel soothing when they get a

a comforting response from other and when they feel the other pull away, they get more distress, right? But they are very likely often to reach out as well, right? When they’re distressed to other people to help soothe while they’re avoiding more learn the opposite, right? They kind of became dependent on self soothing, right? Because they did not trust this co-regulation meaning soothing from another person because for them, hey, it never came, right? why would I trust other people, which is also why

Michael Preston (05:01.761)
constant.

Michael Preston (05:18.854)
It was never coming in the first place.

Thomas Westenholz (05:22.559)
You know, now if you take the anxious pursuer role, then I’ll jump into avoidant role now. And if I’m in this role, you know, why would I trust? And often we say, they struggle with being vulnerable and emotional. Well, if I’m the avoidant, why would I take that risk? Because when I was a kid, I did scream for help. I did cry and nobody came. Right. So I learned that the only way that I could soothe was through myself. I had to

Michael Preston (05:51.243)
Mm-hmm.

Thomas Westenholz (05:52.272)
shut down those impulses to not get overwhelmed by the emotion. And I got really good at that, right? And I am really good at that now. So I’m very independent. I don’t really need other people because I learned how to suppress my emotional responses. Sometimes it’s even hard for me to know what the emotions are. It’s even hard for me to express it. And my partner might start getting frustrated that I’m not emotionally there. They might feel, you know, emotionally alone, right? Because I’m there. And for me, it’s just normal.

I don’t even see it. So I get very confused when suddenly my partner, anxious pursuer, come there and gets angry with me, right? And I’m like, why have I done something wrong again? And why can I never get this right? Right? And often when I’m stressed, I don’t come to the other person and say, hey, can you help Sue? Because I don’t trust that. I don’t trust you’re going to be there for me. And the anxious probably want to be there, right? But I don’t trust it. So I’m not going to do that.

Michael Preston (06:49.313)
Absolutely.

Thomas Westenholz (06:50.652)
I probably go to my office to just de-stress after work and you might feel rejected, right? You might think he doesn’t care about me or whatever, but in my mind it’s just… Yeah.

Michael Preston (07:01.473)
And you hear that, right? Where the pursuing partner says, my partner comes home and doesn’t even acknowledge me, right? Just walks straight to their den, their office, their room, and walks right past me. And it’s like, they don’t even care, right? They don’t even care.

Thomas Westenholz (07:09.79)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (07:21.771)
Yes, that’s right. And that’s where the cues already start being missed, right? Like what would you said now? Because one of them is waiting here to, maybe get a hug, maybe say hello, have a wash your day, maybe get help with the kids, whatever is happening. Exactly. So they’re waiting there, maybe looking forward to it. And their voiding has probably whatever come home with all this stress internally, right? That they dealt with. And the idea for them of coming and regulating together is like,

No, that’s never a model I’ve seen in my life. So I can’t count on this person. So I just go to my office and then I can calm myself down. by then, how is the experience for you? Like we’re obviously role playing, right? But how would the experience be for you in this?

Michael Preston (08:05.537)
Well, I think about it, right? Because you do hear the withdrawing partners say, can I just get 10?

Thomas Westenholz (08:10.345)
Yeah.

Michael Preston (08:12.097)
Can I just get 10 minutes? Because that’s what they’ll say. Just to quiet my brain down. Right. But then my partner comes in and you know, they’re like a little puppy. Hey, how was today? What did you do? Where did you go? Did you buy anything? you see anything? Did you look at, you know, a new book? Did you read a magazine? Did you read an article? Did you call your boss? What did your boss say? Did you get a promotion? Like, tell me what happened. Right. And they’re like, leave me alone. That’s, that’s what I’m like. And, and then their partner,

Thomas Westenholz (08:34.857)
You

Thomas Westenholz (08:38.589)
Yes.

Michael Preston (08:41.813)
goes away, right?

they’re left standing there wondering what they did wrong already. And if they hit a pain spot, what did I do wrong is something wrong with me will likely get turned into anger and frustration and be voiced as what’s wrong with you.

Thomas Westenholz (09:09.031)
Yes.

Michael Preston (09:10.869)
How can you just walk right in and say nothing to me? How could you? And it becomes a list of criticisms to their partner, right?

Thomas Westenholz (09:17.13)
So that’s where I start the pursuing part we talk about, Why we call anxious pursuer, because now that’s like, it might be a feeling of rejection, whatever it might be that they’re experiencing, right? That the person just goes straight to the office or whatever they do. And now they’re like, I’m left here alone and I need this co-regulation togetherness, right? So then of course, yes. Yes.

Michael Preston (09:41.321)
And I don’t have a way to calm down without it. Right? I don’t cool off by getting into my own space. I ratchet up. It gets worse. It gets worse. So all the while my partner is calming down.

Thomas Westenholz (09:53.097)
That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (09:58.963)
Yes. You’re going up, up, up, up.

Michael Preston (10:00.949)
Hmm. And then they come out like, Hey, how was your day? How was my day? Right?

Thomas Westenholz (10:06.953)
Yes, and you left me alone and I needed… Yes, and now here I’m standing here coming out of the office, right? Just come and I’m saying, what’s happening, right? I’ve thought everything and now I’m getting quit and over time that built into this pattern, right? Of distress where one lashes out because they need connection, because they need come be with me and it feels horrible when you are not and the other one saying, I can’t trust this so…

Michael Preston (10:10.395)
You left me alone. Where were you? How dare you, right?

Thomas Westenholz (10:34.395)
I regulate myself and when I then come out, get attacked and now I start feeling something is wrong with me. Maybe I can’t get this right relationship. And then slowly, as you said before the podcast, it start very small, right? From hey, we’re in love, it feels good. And slowly, many, many of these interactions, like we talked about the emotional bank account, it’s like every one of them is a little while draw, right? And if you keep pulling out money and never put any money in, eventually we go into overdraft, right?

And that’s often when they then come to couples therapy and they have all these, is this the right person? And all this stuff.

Michael Preston (11:10.749)
yeah. Yeah, that’s definitely where we meet people. And you you’re naming that question, like, are we, people do come in wondering, are we even compatible?

Thomas Westenholz (11:15.963)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (11:23.015)
Yes, absolutely.

Michael Preston (11:25.665)
Yeah, so share a little about like when, how do you understand what people are trying to convey when they ask what are we even compatible?

Thomas Westenholz (11:38.15)
Yeah, I guess what has built up over time is a sense of doubt, right? And I think often come people come in with conflicting internal emotions. One is, hey, I have invested in this person a lot. really care. I might even love this person, right? And I really want this to work. I’m desperate for them to get my cue. They might not think this logically, right? But that’s what’s happening. I’m desperate for them to kind of get, get me to hear me to be able to reach them, right? And on the other hand,

Michael Preston (11:42.549)
Yeah.

Thomas Westenholz (12:06.354)
There’s this part, I’m about to give up. I always say this, you know, from moment, this will probably more be something that resonate for the anxious pursuer, right? As I say, hey, you’ve been holding out your hand for so long for this person waiting for them to grab your hand. And every time they walk past and don’t grab the hand and every time it hurts a little bit. And eventually we pull the hand away, right? Cause it start to hurt too much. Right?

Michael Preston (12:31.914)
Mm-hmm.

Thomas Westenholz (12:32.505)
And then we have to start protect and that’s when the pursuers start giving up, And maybe they even start pursuing and they might look like somebody who’s by drone, right? And I think that question often has this conflict internally. Part of me really craves that I can still reach them and get this response that I want. And part of me is starting to give up. And then I have these thoughts that start saying, is this the right person? Maybe we are just not compatible, da da da, right? And I’m trying to logically figure out what to do here.

Save your relationship

Michael Preston (13:02.165)
Yep. Yep. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. think people enter that space kind of going that sense of, don’t know what else, like where else to put the blame for all the things that are going on. Right. And so, you know, maybe it’s just, we’re not meant for each other. Right. And then it’s like, nobody’s fault. Right. Maybe we’re just not compatible. Right.

Thomas Westenholz (13:03.194)
That’s what I think is happening, right?

Thomas Westenholz (13:17.446)
Yes. Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (13:25.04)
Yeah.

Yes, yes.

Michael Preston (13:31.361)
And what I hear them saying is, we are losing hope here.

Thomas Westenholz (13:40.368)
Yeah, I like that.

Michael Preston (13:42.707)
losing hope and we’re starting to pull our care in like away from the relationship. We’re starting to disconnect like in a not like in a moment like argument disconnection but like really starting to pull in all of my heartstrings because there’s been a lot of right and to keep those heartstrings out there.

and keep doing this painful dance that we’re getting into really begins to get exhausting. I mean, we as people only have so much emotional energy to keep giving. And eventually we have to go. You know what? I’ve got to make sense of a good reason to kind of pull back and not keep hurting. And maybe that good reason is we aren’t compatible.

Thomas Westenholz (14:36.006)
Yes.

Michael Preston (14:40.545)
But, know, people, you know, I want to say a little bit about this, like where people don’t come into our office and in a newer relationship and start with that level of pain. Right. There is a kind of a process that couples go through that they find themselves sliding into this place. By the time you were in, by the time they show up in our office.

That bank account has had a lot of withdrawals and not a lot of deposits over the years. They get into that. They’re in debt, relational debt. But most relationships don’t start in relational debt. Most of them. I’ve come across some that right out the gate, massive trust was lost and they still wanted to work on it. And I was like, okay, cool. There must be something here. But there was already no relational bank account to speak of.

Thomas Westenholz (15:16.313)
Yes, that’s

Yes.

Michael Preston (15:41.045)
But that’s a really important concept because if you think about what couples are doing at the beginning of a relationship, that they do really well naturally. Right? If you think about a newer relationship, you’re going to create time for the relationship. You’re going to create it. You might not have it, but you’ll find a way. Right?

Thomas Westenholz (15:53.743)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (16:03.119)
Yes, yes, yeah, yes.

Michael Preston (16:10.815)
your, your go, so you’re going to be intentional and, you, you will ask other parts of your life to sacrifice for the benefit of seeing where this thing is going. Right. Like that’s what couples do. That’s what people do when they get into a relationship, right? They start going, Hey, I want to spend some time with this person. Right. Because everybody naturally knows if I am wanting a relationship with this person,

Thomas Westenholz (16:13.391)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (16:30.563)
Yes.

Michael Preston (16:40.263)
And I do nothing. I don’t reach out. I don’t call them. We don’t schedule something. We don’t go to dinner. Well, then there’s nothing. There’s no relationship to speak of. And that’s what a relationship is, is spending time with someone, doing things you both enjoy, doing things one person enjoys for the sake of that one person, and maybe doing things the other. All that sacrifice you’re willing to make. That work project can wait a day.

Thomas Westenholz (16:50.777)
That’s it.

Thomas Westenholz (17:01.722)
Yes.

Yes.

Michael Preston (17:09.152)
right, because we’re going to go hang out and do this thing, right? Or I really don’t like going into the coffee shop, but my, you know, this person really seems to like the coffee shop. So I’ll go sit at a coffee shop and listen to them talk about the book they’re reading because I want to invest in, I want to see where this is going. So we’ll do things we don’t want to do.

Thomas Westenholz (17:27.429)
So that said, we’re building up, like you said, right? We’re investing into, we’re putting in deposit. That’s right. Lots of deposits in the beginning.

Michael Preston (17:32.245)
all of that. That’s right.

Yeah, and in the beginning, who doesn’t go out on a date and make a comment about their partner or this person that they’re building this relationship about like, how nice they look tonight. now you look lovely. I really like that. Or wow, wow, you look amazing. Common. These are very common things people will do. And all of these are relational deposits.

Thomas Westenholz (17:52.581)
Yes.

Michael Preston (18:02.305)
But as you and I know, all those things don’t tend to stay in a relationship. Like they get all put into the category of new relationship stuff. And I think that’s a devastating impact of how couples go from feeling very safe and enjoying a relationship to getting into a space of going

this doesn’t feel the same anymore. I still have care for this person. We’ve been together a long time. It’s comfortable. It’s comfy pair of shoes or old jeans that you like. But it’s not getting any more deposits. But we’re not taking massive withdrawals either. So I think like John Gottman would say, this is where benefit of the doubt is still present. So we’re going to, you know.

Thomas Westenholz (18:48.846)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (18:54.072)
Yeah, yes.

Michael Preston (18:57.557)
let something slide or, yeah, they got busy at work and that happens. and then that, that lasts for some time. And honestly, that’s where I want people to come into therapy. Right. If you’re in a relationship where

Michael Preston (19:15.849)
You’ve noticed those things that were really good in the beginning have kind of tapered off. And you notice that you are having to make a consistent effort to explain why those things aren’t there anymore, right? Life is busy. we did this. that’s that. And that’s lovely. I’m so glad when couples are still able to do that because the message that’s not happening is my partner doesn’t care.

Thomas Westenholz (19:21.764)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (19:40.421)
Yes.

Michael Preston (19:45.301)
Right? It’s, my partner’s busy. But if that’s the everyday, then what you are in is that like kind of stale relationship where arguing happens. Some, it doesn’t define the relationship, but you notice there’s more hesitancy to get into things because you’re likely to have an argument. Right. And that’s the phase where people are like, we’re in a rough patch, but you know, we’re going to get better. I would say you’re probably not.

Thomas Westenholz (20:11.725)
Yes.

Yes, you know, this is such a good point you’re saying, and this is why I just want to highlight it because this is where it gets hard when people wait too long, right? Until there’s no… And it’s, you know, a lot of my analogies that we are emotional DJs jungle where I have another one because we also mechanics because the fact is if I, if I start hearing that, that my brakes are making a weird sound on the car, that’s the time to go to the mechanic. If I keep waiting,

And waiting, what very likely will happen is then more damage will happen to the car. And suddenly we don’t just have to change. And this happened recently, which is why it’s a good example. And not only do we have to change disc brakes, but now we have to change the whole brake. And it ended up costing three times more. And I was like, my God, 300 pounds turned into 1200 pounds, right? And that was because I didn’t do it in time. Had I gone when the squeaking sound started and said, let me go to the mechanic and just get him to check this.

then it could probably have been sorted quite easily. And that’s why I’m making the analogy again with therapy, because if people come at the stage you’re talking about now, when they start hearing, something isn’t quite right, but we are not in proper trouble, the car is still driving, the relationship is still going, but some sound is off and they come then, it’s relatively easy to help them spot the pattern, step out of the pad, yes, but often they wait until extra damage has been happened. Maybe the car even crashed because the brake weren’t working anymore.

Michael Preston (21:32.096)
Wait.

Thomas Westenholz (21:40.203)
And now we’re looking at a whole reconstruction and people start doubting, maybe I should just, you know, discard the car and buy a new one, right? Because it’s too much to fix it. It’s like going to be so expensive. we have mechanics as well,

Michael Preston (21:54.453)
Yeah, I’ve always used a mechanic example as well where like I would ask, used to do groups for alcohol and drug recovery and we would do emotions week and I would talk about emotions and I would start with a question. Everybody drives to treatment, I would say. Just a quick question for you all. If your check engine light in your car comes on, is that a good thing or a bad thing? And what do think most people would say?

Thomas Westenholz (21:58.593)
Yeah.

Thomas Westenholz (22:24.108)
Well, they will probably say that’s a bad thing. I would presume, yes.

Michael Preston (22:25.995)
That’s a bad thing. Yes, of course. Of course everybody says that’s a bad thing. Ooh, bad check engine light because it means something must be wrong. Right. And then I say, actually, maybe you’re right. So I have an idea. Let me go out to the car. Let me find the fuse to your check engine light. And I’m just going to take it out. Right. So now the check engine light will never come on. And I was like, that’s gotta be a good thing. Right.

Thomas Westenholz (22:34.881)
Yes.

Michael Preston (22:56.171)
And then you can see the light bulbs ticking, right? Because if I removed it, that’s a really bad, that’s actually the bad thing. Like not having a check engine light.

Thomas Westenholz (22:58.275)
is, is.

Thomas Westenholz (23:04.097)
this.

Now they don’t know when something is wrong and that can be dangerous. That’s right. Yes.

Michael Preston (23:10.749)
Now we don’t know. Right. So, okay. So let’s, let’s take this thread. I like this thread that we’re on, right? Let’s take this mechanical thread because this is what I want people to hear in this podcast is how do we, how do we know what is the relational check engine lines, right? What is this squeaky brake stuff? Right. And this is kind of what we’re talking about is when these things start to take over, right? This things, the stance that we’ve been talking about, when is a good time to go and say, you know what, let’s get some help.

If I, I like the check engine light, while it could mean something, you know, man, something big is going on. It could mean something small is going on. Right. But if I go to the mechanic and they pull the code and they say, here’s the problem, we can fix it. Right. Great. But like you said, if I ignore the check engine light and look, and I’ve had some cars that had like, we, we ran like me and that check-in is like, we were good, but we were, were good friends. Like that thing was always on. And I was like, you’re going to get me where I’m going today.

But I don’t think I would do that anymore with kids in the backseat and all those things. Or if there was a time where my wife would have to pick me up at night in not such a great part of town. so I was like, we’re gonna get rid of the car that keeps breaking down and I’m gonna get you a car that can get you where you’re going. And there was a lot of relational bank account moments to just like, we couldn’t really afford a car, but I’m gonna get one because you need to not be breaking down.

Thomas Westenholz (24:12.802)
Yes

Thomas Westenholz (24:34.837)
Yes.

Yes.

Michael Preston (24:39.105)
And so what do we do? How do couples begin to notice? Like what would you say to someone who said, Thomas, how do I know if the check engine light in my relationship is coming on? How do know it’s time to change the brakes? What is a thing you might notice early on that would help someone go, that’s really helpful.

Thomas Westenholz (24:59.433)
Yeah, you know, this is a really, it’s such a good question. And I’m so happy we’re actually talking about this because I think, I wish that this was something that we told all kids as they grow up because carpal therapy or even individual therapy. think there’s this fact that we haven’t learned that emotions is part of the system’s way of rebalancing itself. have this incredible organism that kind of have three systems.

Michael Preston (25:20.854)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (25:25.323)
We have somatic, which is the body, right? Bodily signal. So I’m hot, I’m cold, which tells you, should I take clothes off? Should I put more clothes on? Am I hungry? Should I eat more? Should I stop? That helps you balance, right? It tells you when blood sugar is low, go eat. It tells you, no, you had enough calories. Now you’re full. It tells you, you know, this is not a good temperature. You will get sick. Put on a jacket. So it re-balances if we listen to it. If you ignore it, well, then you’re going to get cold. Eventually you’ll shake. Eventually you get sick.

Michael Preston (25:49.473)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (25:54.421)
I mean, how many people use the phrase, I should have listened to my gut, right? When they’re like, my gut was telling me this was a bad decision and I ignored it and it fell apart. We use that phrase. That’s what people, that phrase helps people know what you’re talking about because it’s a phrase we all use.

Thomas Westenholz (25:58.728)
Yes.

Exactly.

Thomas Westenholz (26:05.84)
Exactly. Exactly.

Thomas Westenholz (26:12.417)
But you’re spot on. And this is exactly it, right? When we can listen to these signals, but we haven’t learned how to do this. Actually, we often learn the opposite, how to ignore them, right? And that means, I always compare to being in the wild, if your compass isn’t working, let’s say we don’t have an iPhone and your compass, then it suddenly becomes hard to know which way to go, right? Which way is the direction? And when we’re not listening to this, it’s like the compass isn’t fully working. We’re more likely to get lost. The second system is obviously the emotional system, right?

Michael Preston (26:19.585)
That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (26:42.268)
And we obviously have lived in a culture that tend to classify. And you gave a perfect example with the lights coming on as a good, is it bad? We tend to categorize emotions as being good or bad, meaning there are some we want to avoid and some that we want to have. Like we like to have some joy, but we don’t like sadness. Sadness bad, right? Or anger bad. So we can do… Instead, if we start looking at this as a compass, which it really is, it’s a biological compass.

Michael Preston (26:58.817)
yeah.

Thomas Westenholz (27:09.194)
that helps tell us when we are on the right path and what adjustments we have to do. So as an example here, what that is, anger isn’t good or bad. Anger is just part of the signal. Like the car, it’s signaling that something is happening. It could be that you’re allowing people to keep taking advantage of you or whatever. It could be that you keep being ignored. And the system is saying, I need you to take a corrective action to stop what is happening. So in that way, like you reframed the light on the car, right?

Michael Preston (27:13.505)
Mm-hmm.

Thomas Westenholz (27:38.767)
Anger can be a super and is a super helpful. If we can listen to it, it’s when we repress it and it becomes explosive, then yes, it can become an issue how we react to the anger. The anger is not the problem. How we react to it, right?

Michael Preston (27:41.749)
helpful.

Michael Preston (27:52.555)
Yeah, that’s actually the emotion I used with the, that’s how I explained anger was using the check engine light, right? And I so is anger good or bad? And people go, no, it’s bad, right? It’s bad because what happens when I get angry is this, right? And that’s how people know. And I said, you know, just like the check engine light, the only meaning for the check engine light is you need to look under the hood. That’s all I mean. Anger is you need to look under the hood. Like something is happening here. And all the emotion,

Thomas Westenholz (27:58.727)
Yes, yes.

Thomas Westenholz (28:05.598)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (28:13.171)
Yes, exactly, exactly. Yes. Yes.

Michael Preston (28:22.673)
is welcome when all emotion is welcome. That doesn’t mean all behavior is welcome. that’s just so important to… It doesn’t mean I’m angry, therefore yelling at my partner is justified.

Thomas Westenholz (28:25.417)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (28:30.081)
Yes, exactly.

Thomas Westenholz (28:37.809)
Absolutely. But the emotions is always okay, like you said, because the emotion is just a signal, something that needs it. And if we ignore it, like if we ignore the car warning signs, eventually we’re going to get in trouble, right? The car might malfunction, whatever might happen. Same here. And the last system we have is obviously cognition thought, where we can, you know, think about how we think about ourselves, how we make meaning out of the world. And when we are aware of these three systems, they can really help us rebalance. Because your question was, you know, how do they then know?

Michael Preston (28:40.886)
options.

Thomas Westenholz (29:06.803)
when they are slowly starting to go this path out of balance and creating a cycle that’s not beneficial. Well, we have to have some awareness of these systems because they are the one telling us if we have no awareness, it’s very difficult to know when we are getting off.

Michael Preston (29:20.033)
It sounds though, let me just pause, it sounds like you’re telling people they’re gonna have to slow down. man, you’re gonna have to slow down with your body, pay attention to it. Thomas, I don’t wanna do that. I don’t wanna do it.

Thomas Westenholz (29:24.415)
Yeah, that’s right. Like we talked about last time. Exactly. We need to slow down. Yes. Yes.

Yes, that’s no, get it because we’re used to driving 130 miles an hour and it can even become so accustomed to driving at that speed that we get irritated when we have to slow down because it’s like why are we driving so slow, right? I just want to get there and I don’t want to drive slow and maybe it doesn’t feel very good if you’re not used to it and suddenly all these emotions and you feel tension in your stomach, right? But

Michael Preston (29:48.032)
No

Thomas Westenholz (30:01.54)
it is the best way to be able to follow the compass and also know in your relationship when something is going off. I can give you an example. you know, let’s just look at the cognition, the thought process. So often when things start going off in a relationship, I might start thinking different about myself. I might start doubting is something wrong with me. Yeah. So that’s how my cognition might be changing. And I can say, wait, beforehand, I wasn’t thinking is there something wrong with me? I felt I thought that I was really great.

Michael Preston (30:11.805)
Yeah.

Michael Preston (30:20.51)
Aye, aye.

Thomas Westenholz (30:29.04)
I got all… So cognition start to change, right? It could be, like you said, if we slow down enough, I might feel… Actually, I feel a lot of tension and I hadn’t had as much appetite lately. Well, that’s a signal that something is going out of balance, right? Maybe I’m feeling more anxiety than I usually am. Then that’s a signal to say something is off here. And it’s not about blaming the partner, even blaming myself. It’s just like you said, it’s just the warning light. It’s just saying something.

needs attention. Yeah. And we have two choices. We can keep ignoring it, which will tend to end us up in trouble, right? And people often have it ignored for a while when they come to us, right? Or we can start paying attention to it and sit down and say, hey, something needs our attention. And hey, we might not know how to deal with that, which is why there is professional help, right, available that can help kind of guide that when we don’t know where to start.

Michael Preston (31:00.555)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (31:26.045)
But the first point is being able to at least notice that something isn’t quite in balance anymore. My organism isn’t quite feeling right. It could be a feel more tense, more anxious, more whatever it is, right? More deflated, more lack of energy, feeling tired all the time, which is more like a collapsed response in a nervous system, right? Rather than the hypervigilance of feeling very stressed and anxious. So, you know, like you said,

It takes time to slow down and to check in and saying how what’s happening now compared to before.

Michael Preston (31:57.013)
Yeah

Michael Preston (32:01.889)
So I really like this. really like it. Cause I’m going to invite the listeners to take a second even now. Right? And let’s say you’re listening to this and this is kind of speaking to you and what Thomas is saying kind of has you curious. And so I’ll ask a question and you can just take a second and I’m going to give you like 15 seconds. I’m not going to say you’re silent for a long time, but I’ll ask this question. just want you to consider.

where it comes up, what you begin to hear.

how you begin to respond to this question. Maybe you can kind of listen for the alarm bell that goes off, or maybe there’s an alarm bell in your body. Maybe this makes your heart sink. Maybe it makes your heart skip beat, because it feels good to hear this. But I invite you to just pay attention. The question I would ask you is, where do you feel your relationship is today? Does it feel balanced? Is it a priority?

Do you feel connected? Is it fun still?

Or is it hard?

Michael Preston (33:19.583)
Are arguments becoming regular? Do you feel more disconnected?

Thomas Westenholz (33:37.212)
It’s a really nice check in Michael and a good way to bring it into something relatable that people can actually do,

Michael Preston (33:37.463)
Yeah.

Michael Preston (33:44.969)
Yeah, you know, and I’m just thinking, what if, what if couples

ask each other that. Right? And I get that like a lot of couples that when they enter our office, there’s no level of safety probably to go ask their partner that level of intimate questions. maybe if that doesn’t feel safe enough, maybe it’s safe enough to sit with yourself and be honest.

Right? And I would say if you’re listening and what came up for you was a painful experience when you listened to that question, it might be time to consider seeking help because what I’m fairly aware of is…

The way couples get off balance and stay off balance is they don’t even realize how off balance their relationship has gotten. And they certainly don’t see that it’s a pattern. It’s predictable actually. They know it keeps happening, but they don’t see the cues. They don’t see the thing that’s going on. And that can be so difficult.

without help, without good help.

Thomas Westenholz (35:15.196)
And like you said, because when we go into these responses, right, default attachment responses, and we get in distress because we are missing each other, then what tend to happen is this either, let’s find the bad guy, meaning there’s a criticism and I feel attacked and then no, I try to make it about there’s something wrong with you and you try to make it. We are trying to defend our sense of self in that moment when we feel threatened, we’re just trying to defend it. So we can’t

Michael Preston (35:24.981)
Mm-hmm.

Thomas Westenholz (35:42.82)
Relating has stopped basically. In that moment relating isn’t happening anymore, right? Because when we have to protect the very sense of self, then it’s impossible to be in an empathetic state of mind where we can relate and try and understand the other. All I can do now is trying to at least make it about you because that means I can protect mine. And now all you can do is trying to throw it back, right? That’s a find the bad guy. We’re trying to find who is to blame, except that even if one of us were to win,

Michael Preston (35:47.649)
Okay.

Thomas Westenholz (36:11.907)
meaning that you persuaded me that I’m the bad guy, we both lost. Because I’m going to feel horrible about myself. I’m certainly not going to feel connected to you, knowing that something is fundamentally wrong with me doesn’t make me feel connected, right? And you’re not going to feel connected either. You might get a little dopamine for feeling, they agreed with me, but then there’s just a sense of disconnect back again, right? So nobody can ever win in this default response of trying to protect the sense of self, right? It’s impossible.

Michael Preston (36:16.673)
We both.

Thomas Westenholz (36:41.401)
we will eventually both lose. It’s like a nuclear war. Yeah, you might be the guy standing, but your country is still destroyed, right? So we all lost. it’s like it’s a lose for everyone involved. And then there’s the other one where maybe, hey, you anxious, presume you criticize me and I go into internal shame and blame, right? And I say, yes, something is wrong. And you see somebody who’s pulled more and more away.

where even often their mental health can start deteriorate because their sense of self become more and more something is wrong with me, right? Which is very detrimental. And the critical part of becoming more and more feeling alone, because I can’t reach no matter how much I turn up that volume and they both feel almost desperate, right? And this is something I do see that’s quite common when it’s gone this pattern on for too long, is that the withdrawal partner has started to feel slightly depressed and is almost completely withdrawn.

because they now feel something is fundamentally wrong. And the other person is in between going into rage because I can’t reach them no matter how loud and into hopelessness, right? And that’s when you start seeing. And this is why we can have an incredible impact on each other, both in a positive way, but also very destructive. Because when we get sucked into these patterns and can no longer distinguish what’s real and what just this pattern, right? And we think it’s real, then it can really harm.

the mental health of both people, right? But saying that, we also have the positive aspect, which we often get to see in the carpal therapy room, right? That when we can change that dynamic and help them first calm down, regulate, right? So we are not in the escalation phase and help them be able to respond to these cues. Then they can also start recreating a sense of safety of self and actually boost their sense of wellbeing and how they perceive themselves, right? Which is wonderful.

Michael Preston (38:06.817)
Mm-hmm.

Thomas Westenholz (38:34.106)
But often I think we then time to think, it’s this person who’s in the wrong at this person. When maybe there’s nobody to blame. Maybe it isn’t one of the people that are in the wrong. And maybe it’s not about one of the people changing, right? I think what you and me talk a lot about here is maybe it’s a dynamic of continuously missing the distress of the other person and having two different ways of regulating the nervous system that can make it very confusing.

Michael Preston (38:40.097)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (39:02.689)
That’s everything.

Thomas Westenholz (39:02.691)
to understand why is this person going away if they’re stressed because people will often, we presume the world from our own perspective, right? So the anxious will often say, if I was like that, I would come and ask for help, right? So they don’t get it. Of course you would because that’s how your nervous system regulates, but it’s not how your avoidant partner regulates.

Michael Preston (39:13.793)
That’s right.

Michael Preston (39:21.729)
It’s very rare for the avoidant partner unless it’s a do or die situation for an avoidant partner to reach out for therapy. It’s normally the pursuer that that says, okay, if I can’t find a way to my partner, I’m gonna pull somebody else into this thing. Maybe they can reach my partner. Right. And they also come in with like, will you tell my partner how to be better? So we get better. Right.

Thomas Westenholz (39:29.443)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (39:40.099)
Yes.

Michael Preston (39:48.863)
And is even though they’ll go outside the relationship and say, look, come help us. Come help us. So it’s normally is the pursuing partner that will pursue therapy.

Thomas Westenholz (39:58.701)
Yes.

Michael Preston (40:00.705)
And I think what we really want to encourage people today is don’t wait too long. The longer you’re in distress, the more ingrained these patterns become and the more difficult it is to get out. That’s the hard part. And what you were naming is just some things people can pay attention to. If you’re in a relationship and you notice that you don’t reach out,

much. And you have this sense that for the, which is often the avoidance message, right? If you have a sense that it doesn’t feel like you can get anything right with your partner, right? Like if, if I say yes to the thing, that seems problematic. If I say maybe that’s problematic. If I say no, that’s also problematic. And so I say nothing. And that is also problematic.

Thomas Westenholz (40:58.04)
Yes.

Michael Preston (40:59.625)
And so if that’s been your experience and you’ve noticed that you’ve really withdrawn from the relationship, you’re still there, you’re still in it, you still care, but you just don’t know what to do. That might be some really good time to say, it’s, maybe these are, this is what these guys are yabbering on about. Maybe this is the place that I need to say, do we need some help here? Or if you’re the pursuing partner and you’re

feeling that sense of I just can’t reach my partner, right? Or reaching my partner is getting more difficult. And I don’t know what’s happening because my partner’s not sharing with me anymore. That’s a really good sign to say, hey, maybe we need to get some help to begin to see this pattern, right? And every couple I work with, it is

Paramount to really getting our work done is can you hold this dynamic together as a, I’ll use a therapy word here and then I’ll back off a little bit. We say co-constructed pattern, right? Which simply means both partners are playing a role in keeping, establishing and maintaining this pattern, right? It is some way the interaction

is happening that is organizing your relationship and each partner has to be able to go, I see the pattern I’m creating with my partner. This pattern becomes what we blame rather than turning on each other and blaming each other.

Thomas Westenholz (42:45.464)
That’s right. That’s so spot on, Michael. And I really like what you were saying. And as you were speaking, just thought, because often, at least for me, in many cases, I see it’s a woman that initiate couple, fair people reach out, schedule a call, whatever it is. And the man kind of is a bit hesitant, but comes along because he doesn’t want to lose the relationship. I’m not saying this is always the case, but in many cases it is.

Michael Preston (43:08.385)
No, In heterosys couples, yeah, that’s generally how it works.

Thomas Westenholz (43:14.326)
Yes, yes. and, you know, what I would often say here is, you know, I think often there’s still this stigmatism around what therapy is something we go to if something is wrong with us. Couple therapy doesn’t mean anything is wrong with you. It really is like the example we said with the mechanic. All it means is you go get a checkup. It doesn’t mean anything is wrong with you if a light bulb is out in your car, if the brake needs a changing, if the oil needs to be changed.

That doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with you as a person, as a human being. It just means we need to maintain the car and sometimes have a text and sometimes change a few things. Relationships are the same. We will eventually, sometimes, even in great relationships, we will go a little bit off path. Yeah. For whatever reason, we might have a lot of stress. We might not have had time for each other. Right. Even the best relationships go through this, right? Even the very best relationships will have periods. And they also need check-ins. Yeah.

So it doesn’t mean anything is wrong with anybody. It literally just means you’re getting a checkup, right? And you look at the elements that might need to change a little bit. That’s it. And, you know, we go back to this question we ask, is my partner compatible? That’s kind of where we started, right? And it’s a really interesting question. I thought a bit about it and I guess it’s always in the gray area. It’s not black or white. So I think the way

Michael Preston (44:38.113)
Mm-hmm.

Thomas Westenholz (44:39.959)
to kind of answer that for me at least, and you might have a different answer. But for me was very much this that, yes, there are some nervous systems that definitely are easier compatible with each other than other nervous system. That is true. And we know the people coming into therapy, the anxious pursuer and the more award-winning drawer is more challenging for the nervous systems to be together. That’s true, right? It is harder. It will be a bit more challenging.

Does that mean they can’t be together and be compatible? Absolutely not. And we see all the time in therapy that when they’re able, the withdrawal start feeling it’s possible to be vulnerable, right? And share and actually get a positive response, right? And not get criticized. Then they start becoming more and more possible, right? And it’s so wonderful, at least for me, that’s when I start getting excited when you see these changes happening, right? And then they can start doing it even outside therapy. And suddenly that means

the anxious start getting that response, emotional response they crave so they can tune down the music, right? And they can eventually start creating a secure dynamic. And I’m just saying this because often there’s this secure dynamic is only for people who have secure attachment. No, it’s not. Two people with very different attachment can create together a secure dynamic, but it’s like learning a new language, right? And that’s part of what happened in couple therapy is just learning a new language that probably wasn’t given

right? Growing up. And I think that’s so amazing that that is possible. So even if you weren’t compatible, whatever it’s exactly meant in that word, then yes, you can still move to have a nurturing relationship, but it might require some support to learn that new language, right?

Michael Preston (46:20.161)
Absolutely.

Michael Preston (46:24.533)
Yeah, I’ll tell you this, early on, probably my more brash days as a young therapist who was probably a more… Yeah. Tell my back that.

Thomas Westenholz (46:33.974)
You’re still young, Michael.

Thomas Westenholz (46:40.47)
You

Thomas Westenholz (46:45.152)
Yeah

Michael Preston (46:45.761)
But in my more big headed therapist days, right? I have a much more normal sized head as a therapist days. And I know what I know and I know that there’s more to know. I, right, younger therapists, I’ve got this thing. But I still kind of stand by what I said here. Cause a client asked me, know, was really fed up with his relationship stuff and his partner’s right there. And in a session he comes in, he’s all hot and bothered. And he said,

He goes, I don’t know, man, are we even compatible? Like, what do you think? Are we compatible? Like, and he was really aggressive about it. And I just kind of leaned back and I said, I don’t know, man. But what I do know is you can pay me for this relationship or you can pay me for the next one. Because either way, you’re going to be in it. Now, that was a brash way to say, what I still actually believe that.

Thomas Westenholz (47:35.945)
Yes.

Michael Preston (47:41.695)
But I’ll tell you how I might say that a bit differently today. What I would say differently today is here’s the deal about compatibility.

Michael Preston (47:52.423)
You can stay in this relationship and

build a safety and security that allows you to be very honest. And as along the way, you might find that in that honesty, you don’t want to be in this relationship, right? And that is okay. But what I’d also know is if you just pluck yourself out of it, right, because maybe we’re not compatible, you will take your protections with you.

Thomas Westenholz (48:26.261)
Yes.

Michael Preston (48:27.105)
And so when things start to get troublesome in your next relationship, your protection will come out. And it is likely that it will create the exact same dynamic with a different person because we know that, you know, the avoidant anxious pairing, right? It’s like 85 % of couples. Like we just, we find each other and two anxious people are going to draw.

Thomas Westenholz (48:52.316)
is.

Michael Preston (48:56.481)
drive each other nuts, right? They’re not gonna stay together long. They’re gonna like, they’re like, that’s like the ideal on the anxious person. Like, I can live with this person and they’re super fun. I’m not gonna, yeah, yeah. And you get with him, you’re like, you’re crazy. And this is too much, right? They don’t last very long. They fight really hard and they’re, it just doesn’t work. we’re like, we would be like a ship with sails and no like hull, nothing to keep us from capsizing, right?

We need that steadiness in our life. Likewise, to avoid it to people, they can stay together a long time, but they’re like a sailboat that never leaves the marina, right? Just sits there. There’s nothing to catch the wind, right? Sure, they won’t capsize and it’s pretty steady, but they don’t go anywhere either.

Thomas Westenholz (49:49.704)
Yeah, it’s like two islands throwing paper airplanes at each other.

Michael Preston (49:52.353)
That’s right. That’s right. But you know, and that’s why we find each other, right? Because like, my anxious, nervous energy that wants to go and say yes to everything needs a partner that says, maybe we say no to this one. Right? It’s like, right, I need someone to keep me grounded. Right? So we find each other. But if you just go, this isn’t working, we’re arguing too much, we’re not compatible.

You haven’t done the work in here to kind of understand how your protection show up in a relationship that gets rocky and you will likely recreate it with someone else. That’s what, that’s what I, when I hear that compatibility world, I just think maybe, maybe not. don’t know. But what I do know is you’re both in protection.

Thomas Westenholz (50:41.812)
You know what, I think you just said something so important and it was such a good answer to the question we kind of posed at the beginning. And as you were speaking, it was kind of like just a light bulb that kind of went on. And the simplicity of what you explained so well is really, at least what I’m hearing, is this, we don’t know if we’re compatible until we have been able to both be authentic.

Michael Preston (51:05.899)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (51:06.516)
Because when we are stuck in protection patterns, of course, that’s not authenticity, right? It’s not possible for the avoidant to come and say, I need your support, da-da-da. For the other one, it’s not possible to necessarily in that moment communicate, hey, I’m longing for you. Instead, until we get to a place where we have dealt with these defense strategies and we can be fully authentic and it’s safe enough to be authentic, we don’t really know if we’re compatible or not.

Michael Preston (51:32.233)
Okay, so I’ll take that. think you’re absolutely right. I think that’s perfectly said. And I’ll say, what we do know is your protection, when it meets your partner’s protection, we know that’s not compatible. We know, and so what you’re saying is, are we compatible? What you’re actually saying is this doesn’t feel compatible. And we’re going, you’re right. Your protection and their protection not compatible.

Thomas Westenholz (51:47.186)
Yes, that’s right. That’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (51:54.258)
Yes.

Yes, that is not compatible. Yes.

Michael Preston (52:00.811)
You’re just going to keep butting heads. So that’s right. You are not compatible if you stay in protection. Right? And our job is to help you get out of protection and into an authentic connection.

Thomas Westenholz (52:06.897)
Yes, that’s right.

Thomas Westenholz (52:13.487)
Exactly. And what we find very often is that then people do find ways to relate in really nurturing ways, right? And yes, it could be a few people might find that actually in authenticity, aren’t, but at least they have now gone through and you’re right, they won’t have to take those defensive strategies to the next relationship, right?

Michael Preston (52:29.761)
They can be more, like they could be more somatically aware, right? More of their body. They can be aware of what they do when that experience hits them, right? Do they withdraw? Do they chase their partner? And they can be aware of what that’s going to be like for the other person. Like there’s so much that they can learn about themselves and what it’s like to, what it’s like to be in relationship with me. Not like what it’s like with that person.

Thomas Westenholz (52:34.791)
Yes. Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (52:43.432)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (52:57.363)
Yes.

Michael Preston (52:59.531)
But what is it like with me when I bring new people out of my anxiousness, right? Out of that, fear, rather than slowing down and reaching in fear, but changing in fear.

Thomas Westenholz (53:05.48)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (53:11.121)
Yes, yes. And that’s where that even the awareness for the process can, going through the process can become so helpful, right? Because even this place of, you know, I remember when I had a lot, a lot of stress, my son was in hospital, and suddenly I had an impulse to withdraw a bit, right? And because I was aware of it, I could say, hey, I know what’s happening here. I know I’m feeling a lot of tension in my stomach. I’m losing appetite. I’m obviously having a lot of stress, high stress response.

I know my tendency when I’m very stressed can be to pull away. So I’m not going to act on that impulse because I know what I need right now is support. So instead of pulling away, I reach out to my partner and I said, I’m feeling a lot of stress and anxiety around my son. My impulse is I want to pull away, but I’m not going to do that. And I could need your, I could really use your help with that. Right. And that changed in a new response.

Michael Preston (53:44.481)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Preston (53:57.185)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Preston (54:04.801)
That’s amazing.

Thomas Westenholz (54:08.562)
But we can only do that if we kind of have gone through this and kind of know, when I have stress, this is how my usual default response would be. And then slowly over time, we can learn to intercept it before we act on it. When we do, would you say, slow down a little bit and don’t act on it straight away and say, this is my impulses, I want to act, but I know this is not very productive. So I’m not going to take that action. I’m going to try a new action.

And then suddenly we start seeing a change and of course it also changes our nervous system, which is the magic of it, right? Suddenly we get a felt experience of, nothing bad happened. Actually, this person did respond to me and they were really kind and actually I’m not alone. And then suddenly the stress also goes down, right? Because when we feel we’re not alone in the world, I always say there’s the first trauma, the experience and the impact it has on us and the secondary trauma.

is then the responses we get from people around us, right? Whether they can respond or not respond. So there’s something really healing and soothing, right? And suddenly seeing, when I do reach out, I can get that response.

Michael Preston (55:10.645)
Mm.

Michael Preston (55:19.105)
Mm-hmm. I love that. So I want want to, one question here, as we, as we wrap up and maybe you can offer a thing and I’ll offer a thing, but to, listeners here, willing, I really appreciate what’s being said and I’m really taking it in and my relationship, you know, it doesn’t feel like that, like really disconnected relationship y’all are talking about, but maybe I’m not in a place right now to go to therapy. Maybe I can’t afford it. Maybe.

You know, it just doesn’t work. Right. But, but like they want to do something. They want to do something to say what, you know, can I, can I start to move back towards connection? I can feel that sense of hesitancy moving into my relationship and I want to change it. What would you say someone could do who’s in that place, right? Who’s got some, got some relational bank accounts still there, but they can feel the withdrawals coming and the lack of deposits. Right.

in that place, what would you say is something they could do practically that could help their relationship maybe put some deposits in?

Thomas Westenholz (56:28.561)
So, well, I guess the first question is always, how can I regulate myself down? Because when I’m dysregulated, I can’t do anything productive, right? So what is the place that I engage from when I engage with my partner, right? If I try to solve things when I’m high barrels, I’m collapsing, it’s never going to have a good outcome, right? So part of it is also knowing when is the right time to engage. Yeah, there is a time that’s more beneficial than other times of trying to engage. And then

Michael Preston (56:38.101)
Mm-hmm.

Thomas Westenholz (56:58.37)
I would say what people can do is when they are in a space where they’re not neither collapsing or hyper aroused and very anxious and stressed, but when they have a little space is to sit down. And it could just be 15 minutes. There’s this really nice exercise in one of Sue’s books, Sue Johnson, who came up with Emotional Folk. I forgot what book is in this. It Hold Me Tight. I can’t remember, but anyways, in one of her books, right, that kind of helps and guides people through how they can communicate.

Michael Preston (57:17.441)
Mm-hmm.

Thomas Westenholz (57:28.078)
what they want to communicate in a very different new way. So instead of going into the blaming, the criticism, which will pretty much always ignite a defensive response of some sort, because we don’t have any other option. We are now in fight or flight, and mykta lafiyah responses online. This exercise is really lovely and simple, and even it could just make 15 minutes for both partners to do this and share what’s going on in an internal world, but through this little model she has in her book,

Michael Preston (57:43.189)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Preston (57:51.457)
Mm-hmm.

Thomas Westenholz (57:56.922)
where you focus much more on, and it will kind of deconstruct how you can express your experience, but in a new way. Where you say, when this happened, this is how I first felt, but actually underneath I felt like this. So maybe I felt really angry, but actually underneath I’m really sad that I can’t reach you. And it’s a really nice little exercise I found that doesn’t take very long. It takes five, 10 minutes for each partner. So again, I know some people are really stretched with time.

Michael Preston (58:03.489)
Okay.

Michael Preston (58:22.048)
Okay.

Thomas Westenholz (58:25.178)
But it’s just that practicing a new way of communicating the same thing, yeah, but communicating in a way where it’s more likely to elicit empathy in the brain of the receiver than a fear, fight or flight response, right? And that could be a good, simple little thing people can practice.

Michael Preston (58:42.081)
Cool. So, so, you know, on the one to get Sue’s book, hold me tight. It’s a great book. Like if you, if you, like if therapy just isn’t in it right now, like it’s not in the cards for you, like that is totally understandable. You can get Sue’s book called, me tight written, not for clinicians, but for clients to, I tell my clients, that’s the blueprint to my therapy. Like that’s how we build the house. If you want to, if you want to kind of see the blueprint,

Thomas Westenholz (58:47.895)
It’s a good book. It’s a good book.

Thomas Westenholz (59:06.681)
Yes.

Michael Preston (59:11.743)
You can do that, right? So yeah, I would recommend getting that book, doing the exercises. I think they’re great. And paying attention, right? So the other thing you can do, like I would say, start with noticing what tips you off, right? Is there something happening? And I’m not saying go tell your partner, this is what you’re doing that tips me off, but can you begin to notice two things, right? So we’re essentially asking you to start building your, noticing the pattern.

Thomas Westenholz (59:17.763)
Yes.

Michael Preston (59:42.633)
What do you notice you do that might tip your partner off? What do you notice your partner does that might tip you off? Can you just grab the cues? Can you just grab what triggers and starts your relationship to get off balance? it, when, when my partner comes home late from work, that sets me off. That’s a cue. That’s what I’m talking about. Or is it like, I know my partner comes in the house.

And the minute they slam something on the table, I know they’re frustrated. I know we’re going to a bad place. So it’s that, it’s that thing that they do. Right. Again, it’s like, go have a long chat with your partner about it, but can you begin to notice the things that tip your relationship off balance? And then I’ll, add if, if you want a structured way to do this without being able to go to therapy, you can always go to the securecouple.com, which is a course that I created for couples.

Thomas Westenholz (01:00:18.415)
Yes.

Thomas Westenholz (01:00:21.87)
Love it.

Michael Preston (01:00:42.273)
to do just this, to map out their cycle. That’s the big thing. Like, we begin to understand the cycle? Can we see it? Right? And it’s available online, do it at home, do it with your partner. You get a workbook. It’s really nice, but it’s an entry into EFT, kind of a easy way to start.

doing that work. It’s meant to go alongside counseling, but it’s also meant to go like, I made it when there was massive waitlets during COVID and there was just no, you couldn’t get to a couple of therapists. And I was like, man, we got to start helping people on these massive wait lists and getting people good information for a reasonable cost. So that’s out there. That’s a resource for couples.

Thomas Westenholz (01:01:28.463)
That’s awesome. you know, even I like that because it’s very simple to just start looking what is the cue that sets us off, right? And as you said, even if people do decide later that they want to see a couple of therapists, even knowing that framework by the time they come will put them at a huge advantage, right? Because they already kind of

Michael Preston (01:01:36.001)
What is it?

Michael Preston (01:01:44.551)
if a couple walked in and said, here’s our cycle, we need help out of it. I’d be like, awesome. This is great. Thank you. You’ve just saved yourself thousands of dollars of just trying to get you all to see this.

Thomas Westenholz (01:01:50.425)
Yeah.

Thomas Westenholz (01:01:56.43)
Absolutely.

Absolutely. Because what you’re saying, like if people know this already, it’s like going down to the mechanic and telling the mechanic what needs to be fixed. It saves him all the time of having to expect the car, figuring out what’s going on. And he just know, okay, this is what I need to sort out, right? So definitely you’re right. It’ll save people money and it’ll also just be helpful for them. And it’s maybe a soft way in for people that are resistant to therapy, who might think, don’t want to go to somebody, right? And so just here you can do it from your own home, which is really, really cool. Very cool idea.

Michael Preston (01:02:23.819)
Yeah.

Michael Preston (01:02:32.321)
Cool. All right.

Thomas Westenholz (01:02:33.782)
Nice. All right. But I guess we got to let the listeners get back to work or whatever they are doing and and we’ll have another episode next week, man. So great to see you again, Michael. I’ll catch you next week.

Michael Preston (01:02:36.587)
Yeah,

Michael Preston (01:02:42.431)
All right. Yeah, good to see you, buddy. We’ll see you next week. Bye. Bye.

Thomas Westenholz (01:02:50.53)
There we go, stop the recording.